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Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

atg.wa.gov

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Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#111
post #54
post #9

Former Amazonian here. When i was there, they made us take this antitrust training course that had things like "don't use terms like 'market share' in internal communications", but all along there were people doing this? I mean...

Be good > Don't be evil > Don't talk about being evil.

The first rule of being a monopoly is don't talk about being a monopoly.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substitute Walmart for Amazon. Substitute corn-flakes for dongles. Substitute Kelloggs for "me". That is the situation right now at Walmart. Kellogg's Corn Flakes are $3.28 for an 18oz pack. Great Value (Walmart own-brand) Corn Flakes are $1.43 for the same size package.

You ignored the key detail: Who set the price for the Kellog’s corn-flakes?

Walmart? I mean they're on Walmart's shelves. I'm pretty sure Walmart sets the price for everything that's on its shelves.

I mean, Walmart could just choose not to sell Kellogg's Corn Flakes at all. If that was more profitable, I'm pretty sure they'd do that.

They sell their own brand at a lower price point for price-sensitive customers, they sell the "premium" brand at a higher price for customers who buy on the basis of the name etc.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reads to me like the sexual harassment trainings. Those specifically tell you what not to do to limit the legal liability of the company. Nowhere in any sexual harassment training video have I ever seen anything saying that if you have the urge to sexually harass people to seek a support group or find another, less socially harmful outlet for your energies, not anything. It's strictly about treating the symptoms a…

What are you talking about? A huge chunk of sexual harassment training is about stuff that is perfectly acceptable in non-work environments (asking someone on a date, flirting, etc). If sexual harassment training was just obvious stuff that needs counseling to fix (e.g. harassing people after having advances declined), then corporations likely wouldn’t need sexual harassment training at all. It’s mandatory precisely…

> If sexual harassment training was just obvious stuff that needs counseling to fix (e.g. harassing people after having advances declined), then corporations likely wouldn’t need sexual harassment training at all.

[Citation Needed]

I'm pretty sure don't take the team out to a strip club as a work outing is always on the training because people keep taking the team out to a strip club.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#114
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sold by Amazon and Fulfilled by Amazon seem to come out of the same box at the warehouse. Unfortunately if you really need genuine products you simply cannot buy things off Amazon anymore.

To be specific, Amazon co-mingles inventory between Amazon, Sold by Amazon, and its third party sellers that are Fulfilled by Amazon. It doesn't matter who you buy from. The picker at the warehouse picks from the same box, the actual product could come from any seller, even if it's "Sold by Amazon". Who you purchase from is purely an accounting thing, unless they manage their own stock and is not part of Prime. If yo…

They don't co-mingle inventory on everything, it varies from product to product (although the majority are indeed co-mingled). While there's no visible way to tell if a product is co-mingled, Amazon support is able to look it up. Whenever I'm buying an item that I would be unhappy with a counterfeit (so anything expensive, electronic, or that goes in my mouth or body) I contact Amazon support by live chat and ask them about that particular item. It generally takes about one minute of my time, spread over half an hour as they chase things down and escalate -- probably ends up costing them a heck of a lot more in support costs than they make on the item, but perhaps if it costs them enough they'll just expose the info?

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#115

It was pretty obvious what Amazon wanted from its business partners if you look at abebooks, a site owned by amazon, but not visibly if you just look at abebooks.com. 'Independent' booksellers sell used books through abebooks, but never for less than amazon sells the same books.

The abebooks login page is clearly a carbon copy of Amazon, and the ‘about us’ page says > We're a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. after being acquired in December 2008.

I never realized AbeBooks was owned by Amazon, but I've never bought a book from there because the Amazon price was always the same or better. Now it makes sense why.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the all-caps brands for these? Is there some belief that it stands out more or something? Because it does, and not in a good way. I skip all those when I'm browsing search results.

I’ve bought some of these all-caps items and some (probably over half) have been surprisingly good products. I’m not deciding between them and Apple usually, but between those brands on Amazon and the same products on Ali. Now that Ali shipping has been nerfed, I often buy from Amazon.

My general experience is these products are often 70-90% just as good for my needs, at like half the price.

I also get duds, which I return and 1 star.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#117

I'm confused why this is anti-trust. Isn't this how all wholesale vendor deals work? Regular wholesale: "We'll buy 200 units from you at $20 each. I'll sell them for some other amount, you don't need to care about it". Amazon in this example: "We'll buy 1 units from you at $20 each. I'll sell them for some other amount, you don't need to care about it. Finally, don't worry about the wholesale rate for a single unit,…

I think there are a few differences.

1) Amazon has the kind of market power that triggers anti-trust concerns. You can't get anti-trust concerns when you're a small player.

2) It sounds like Amazon is not offering to buy units at a set price. They're offering to give the supplier $X if they sell the item. That means that Amazon can decide whether or not they want to sell the item - and the supplier has agreed not to compete with Amazon.

3) Amazon isn't saying, "we'll buy 1...don't worry, we'll make 200 more offers soon." It's more like, "we'll buy 1...if we don't buy any more, you're now prohibited from selling directly on our platform."

Let's take it to the extreme and, for a moment, assume Amazon is trying to be evil. Amazon wants to push AmazonWidget and wants to push YourWidget out of the market. They want to price AmazonWidget at $25. They see that you're selling YourWidget at $25. It's a brand-name that customers will want at $25. Amazon calculates that you're probably making $18 in profit so the come to you and say they're willing to give you $20 per sale. You accept. Amazon then sets the price of YourWidget at $1,000 and not a single customer orders it. AmazonWidget becomes a huge seller.

Let's say that AmazonWidget costs Amazon $15 and they want to sell it for $25. You've been selling YourWidget for $25. By taking control of the pricing of your item, they can make sure that AmazonWidget doesn't have to compete with YourWidget on price. They can price YourWidget at $30 so that they make $10 whether someone buys an AmazonWidget or a YourWidget. Previously, they would have had to price AmazonWidget below $25 to deal with the fact that you were selling YourWidget at $25.

The legal difference is about using market power against someone and against consumers. Amazon is also trying to play both sides - as a marketplace where anyone can sell and as a direct seller. If you get someone to say that they won't compete with you in exchange for a deal where they sell your item and then they take steps to lower the sales of your item, that's a big deal.

By controlling the selling price of the item and prohibiting the supplier from competing with that price, Amazon controls how many get sold and whether it's more profitable for them to push users to different products.

As the article points out, the big issue is that the prices stabilized at higher levels. If the price was usually $25 before and is now usually $30, Amazon has taken steps to raise the price level by taking out competition. This hurts consumers (with higher prices) and suppliers (because it lowered the number of products sold and offered a way for Amazon to replace purchases of their third-party products with Amazon products).

How is this different from a supermarket deciding to raise prices on a third party product to favor its own? I think the key difference is that Amazon is both a marketplace for sellers to sell directly and a retailer. Amazon's dominant position in online shopping has been fueled by third-party sellers on their platform. If you the use that dominance to hurt those sellers and consumers, you're changing the game after people have gotten locked into using your platform. For example, sellers need Amazon because consumers have Prime. Consumers got Prime because of the wide array of third party sellers. When you then take steps that work against those consumers and sellers due to your now-strong market position, that's a problem.

Let's say that Amazon said, "we should be able to do what we want like anyone else!" I'd say they should - but every person that currently has Prime should see that subscription canceled immediately and be prohibited from being a Prime subscriber for 2 years. That way, Amazon wouldn't have the market power over sellers and consumers that it currently enjoys and alternatives might become a big platform. The problem, in my mind, is when a company creates rules, builds market power, and then wants to change those rules when it's in a dominant position. If they want a reset on that dominant position, that's fair - but they never want a reset on that dominant position.

I don't actually think Amazon really meant to do wrong in this case. I think it can be an area where it's not intent that matters. I'm guessing that their algorithms likely started adjusting the price due to the realities of their profit margins. Before, they had their AmazonWidget priced at $22 because it needed to be at least $3 cheaper than YourWidget. They wanted a $10 margin, but couldn't get it. Once they were in control of YourWidget pricing, it settled on $30 which is the $10 margin they want - and then there was room for AmazonWidget to be $25. That seems like the most likely scenario to me. Amazon started identifying good-selling products and thought they'd be better at optimizing sales and profits by controlling the pricing of them. They probably are better. The problem is that it started optimizing for Amazon and not for that seller and so if sales went down 75% on YourWidget, they didn't care.

But the issue is that Amazon took steps to reduce/prohibit competition and it ended up raising prices after they had built up enormous market power under different rules.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#118
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at two Fortune 250s (both publicly listed) in completely different industries. Both had antitrust training for all corporate employees not just leadership. I believe —but have no data—that this is common among publicly listed companies.

The discussion hasn't been circling back to "all big corps have this kind of training" in a more general sense, but in a more specific one. There's antitrust training and there's ANY training that says "never use these words", which are wildly different.

Is there any big corp that doesn’t do “never use these words” training? “We are going to crush the competition” has been taboo in emails since the mid 1990s. Not to mention a lot of words that should be avoided for sensitivity reasons.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#119
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Fines as a way of funding is almost always bad. If that money was to provide relief to aggrieved customers, that would certainly be different.

Are you concerned the financial motive will drive them to break up too many companies? Because right now I think that’s a great idea

That’s the thing, they may not break up companies, or pursue bad actors to the fullest extent of the law if they depend on fines for funding. It creates perverse incentives… we’ve seen this with eg police departments over relying on fines.

The goal of the agency should first and foremost be the protection of the public, not to extort funding.

Re: Washington state shuts down Amazon price-fixing program nationwide

#120
I feel mixed about this because "sold by Amazon" meant that if there was a problem I got to deal with Amazon customer service rather than trying to get service from some Joe with a mailbox 3rd-party reseller.

Yes, I often knew I was paying more and explicitly chose the SBA option as a loss-risk reduction strategy.

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