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Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

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Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#111

Post by netcan »

version_five wrote: post #83
netcan wrote: post #33

Hiring companies might prefer to just have this as a "hoop." There are, inevitably, some people who apply to a lot of jobs. Jobs they aren't qualified for. Low intent applications, where the applicant isn't really that interested. Etc. Even if these are a minority, they apply to a lot of jobs. In any case, standardizing job applications (OP seems to be talking about application forms that are mostly resume-ish fields…

They should ask for a cover letter. I agree that a hoop is needed - I recently posted a job on LinkedIn which has some kind of "click to apply" functionality, and it was clear that most of the applicants were just lazy clickers that probably hadn't even read the posting. On the other hand, if you make people jump through pointless procedural hoops, you're screening for people who are ok doing that. Ask for a cover le…

A cover letter is a screen too.

A cover letter is a kind of writing contest, or maybe it's perceived that way by a candidate. Writing about yourself can be stressful.

I'm not saying not to, ask for a cover letter. Just saying that this stuff is nuanced. Standardisation is great when you want very low friction. Job applications aren't frictionless, probably can't/shouldn't be. Some copy paste fields might be inelegant, but it's not changing the friction equation by much.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#112

Post by qwerty456127 »

Because résumés are subjective bullshit.

Also, once you start engineering a data format for résumés you are going to feel like you want a UUID for every company, university, organizational unit and position. Then some sort of weight they have in valuation of a candidate experience. Then...

My opinion is we don't need résumés at all. I mean they can probably be replaced with a 4-step process: an on-line choose-right test, then a test task, then an interview with an HR specialist who can evaluate the candidate's overall adequacy and then an interview with a specialist experienced in the actual job. I even suspect résumés are harmful.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#113

Post by jeroenhd »

moralestapia wrote: post #91
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a st…

I'm not sure if I'd mind that. If HR is made up of robots that stupid, that sounds like a terrible company to work for.

A standard format wouldn't solve the problems you described. There's no comprehensive list of frameworks and programming languages, let alone for types of experience outside computer science. The data would be structured, but HR would still throw out the bits of data that need to be filled in manually.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#114

Post by ipaddr »

xwdv wrote: post #90
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

As a hiring manager you’d be inclined to disagree. If resumes could be standardized and easily searchable for information it would help find candidates much more accurately and quickly without having to read. Even better would be if there was a verification standard where you could get a blue checkmark on your resume meaning all the information is accurate and not made up bullshit, then you could limit searches only…

Who puts this blue checkmark and verifies?

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#115

Post by beachy »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #106
moralestapia wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a st…

> That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded I'm sure this happened somewhere at some point in time, but IMO it's becoming a myth blown out of proportion. I…

I co-founded an ATS company and I can say that we were never asked for, nor provided, any functionality to automatically screen candidates out based on keyword filters (though candidate answers to actual questions like "Do you 5 years experience with node.js?" are often used to automatically screen out).

That said, I have heard this often enough that some people must do it. I can't imagine why though, as it takes only a few seconds for a human to scan a resume. Even at 10 seconds per resume (a conservative estimate), that means the human could screen 360 resumes per hour.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#116

Post by jeroenhd »

xwdv wrote: post #90
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

As a hiring manager you’d be inclined to disagree. If resumes could be standardized and easily searchable for information it would help find candidates much more accurately and quickly without having to read. Even better would be if there was a verification standard where you could get a blue checkmark on your resume meaning all the information is accurate and not made up bullshit, then you could limit searches only…

That sounds like it pushes hiring managers forward, not industries. You get a benefit out of making it easier to fill open spaces, at the cost of everyone else's unique life experiences.

We have a "verification standard" in the form of diplomas and certificates and neither of those have fixed the hiring issue so far.

If you want to skip background checking, just make people bring their proof of certification with them to the job interview. Of course, those certifications barely mean anything in most fields of work, but it's an exact equivalent of the blue checkmark system you propose.

I get that hiring is hard, but that's why hiring managers exist in the first place. If we used a nicely standardised, automatically validated system, all recruiters and hiring managers would be out of a job. Why pay someone to do that stuff when you could pay a cheap machine learned AI to fill a list of requirements for you?

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#117

Post by faitswulff »

thomasfromcdnjs wrote: post #76
CalRobert wrote: post #22

There is! https://jsonresume.org/ But nobody really uses it for data interchange. I use it to render my resume in new layouts now and then. Although, it does let style dictate content sometimes (some templates force you to have dates down to the day for job start and end dates, etc.)

Json Resume is still going strong. I am one of the founders, I try to do a couple major maintenance periods per year. Currently I am working on updating all the community projects built, still got quite a few to add but currently there is -> https://jsonresume.org/projects/ I think over 3k+ people use the new Gist hosting. (In our old hosting we had around 10k resumes. Not including those who by pass the free communi…

Hey thanks for maintaining this project! I have been using it this round of applications and it’s just so much more convenient than trying to edit a historical doc(x) file with a rotating cast of word editors over the years.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#119

Post by jeroenhd »

version_five wrote: post #83
netcan wrote: post #33

Hiring companies might prefer to just have this as a "hoop." There are, inevitably, some people who apply to a lot of jobs. Jobs they aren't qualified for. Low intent applications, where the applicant isn't really that interested. Etc. Even if these are a minority, they apply to a lot of jobs. In any case, standardizing job applications (OP seems to be talking about application forms that are mostly resume-ish fields…

They should ask for a cover letter. I agree that a hoop is needed - I recently posted a job on LinkedIn which has some kind of "click to apply" functionality, and it was clear that most of the applicants were just lazy clickers that probably hadn't even read the posting. On the other hand, if you make people jump through pointless procedural hoops, you're screening for people who are ok doing that. Ask for a cover le…

What's the point of a machine-compatible CV and a human-written cover letter? A human will need to sift through the same amount of information, except now they also need to read the long suck-up prose that you asked for.

The honest truth about why they want the job for most people is that they provide what you need and that they enjoy things like eating, having a roof over their head, and fun things to do with what's left over of the money you pay them.

Coming up with some drivel about how they've been entranced with Version_Five Inc's tech since they were twelve and how it's been their life-long dream to work with their famous Foobar Widget control language is a nice creative writing exercise but it hardly proves anything. If anything, it rewards lying and deceit to get hired quicker.

Many very capable people suck at writing, even if they are truly driven and interested, especially in the computer science field. A cover letter is a great screen for a job that involves a lot of writing, but for most jobs writing is only a side activity that shouldn't be treated as the main objective.

Re: Why isn't there a universal data format for résumés?

#120

Post by FledNanders »

moralestapia wrote: post #91
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

In my opinion, there shouldn't be. Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. Reducing someone's life history to a list of educational institutions and employers feels robotic even for a software developer's mindset. I understand that there are real life problems because companies do use automated processing on applications, but that kind of behaviour shouldn't be en…

>Documents like these shouldn't be automatically processed, they should be reviewed by humans. That's very nice to think about but in the real world if people don't match some exact keywords they get thrown away. HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded. If anything, a st…

> HR is looking for "node.js" but you wrote it like "nodejs"? Though luck pal, bye. HR wants a "computer scientist" but you have a degree in "computer science"? Same, automatically discarded.

Wouldn't those issues be more likely to occur as a result of automated processing? I imagine that most humans who deal with technical hiring would guess that "node.js" and "nodejs" are probably the same thing.

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