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Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

amc.sas.upenn.edu

111–120 of 134 posts

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#111
post #36
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it kinda did though, didn't it? Being charitable for a second, I suspect it's more that history is "on pause" than ended, but I do get a feeling of almost timeless stasis. In comparison to the scale of ideological, political, economic, and social changes for the 19th and 20th centuries, essentially nothing has happened since 1992. No major nation has had a revolution. There have been no major wars between natio…

> essentially nothing has happened since 1992. Oh yeah, the web changed nothing. /s > No major nation has had a revolution. You are disrespecting Syria, Iraq, Venezuela, Ukraine, Turkey... and of course Yugoslavia, which started breaking up in 1991 (Fukuyama started his ramblings in 1989) and didn't end until 2001 - if you can consider the current fragile peace an end, which it really isn't. Plus, most South American…

all of those sound quite mildly incremental though. Note how many of these wars achieved nothing and basically circled back to where they began, the same old conflicts returned ... with the addition of china

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#112

I have no earthly idea how "identity politics" is related to the demise of the arab spring. In as far as it may relate to the rise of authoritarianism in Eastern Europe (Poland and Hungary), it is by being easy foil for Victor Orban and his ilk (cf. "LGBTQ-free zones"). Even if one were to believe these neo-fascists wouldn't just find some other scapegoat, I don't see how it would morally justify a return to 1950s so…

  isn't even obvious that "identity politics" is tethered exclusively to left-wing politics.
The essay explicitly states that it is not!

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#113
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty literal to me. Fund police less, fund other things more instead.

It is a possible interpretation. But there are a wide variety of interpretations of that slogan in a crowd of people chanting "defund the police". It isn't really possible to say that this specific interpretation is what the crowd means because in all likelihood even the crowd won't agree on any specific interpretation. The other slogan doing the rounds at the same time - "all cops are bad" - suggests that there was…

I'd say that "defund" is softer than and different from "ACAB" or "abolish the police".

"Abolish the police" is pretty much right out of Kropotkin, and a lot of people aren't comfortable with that (perhaps rightly). "Abolish" as opposed to "disband" is a deliberate nod to "abolition", as in slavery abolition. See also: the meme about how modern policing is descended from slave patrols in the Antebellum South (based on my non-professional reading, this seems to be half-true, and it looks more like modern policing developed in 18th-century England).

ACAB... meh. Because of the power dynamics involved, I see nothing wrong with assuming that any police officer is hostile and a threat to your life and liberty. Police departments generally seem incapable of regulating themselves effectively and seem mostly immune to civilian oversight. Maybe there are exceptions in certain parts of the world.

I do agree that some people take "defund" further than others. I also think that a lot of people are "defund revisionists" to some extent, who are squeamish about really aggressively defunding in starve-the-beast fashion, much like how people are squeamish about "abolishing" the police. But I don't think it's a bad thing that any given crowd doesn't agree on what exactly it means. Politicians seem to be more or less uniformly interpreting it in the way I described it.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most comments explaining "defund the police" seem to settle on a different meaning, Most comments explaining "defund the police" are from people who disapprove of it. The above is exactly how I've always heard it described. If they wanted to abolish the police, they could have just said "abolish the police."

> If they wanted to abolish the police, they could have just said "abolish the police." Interesting. What form would you expect this to take? Maybe an Op-Ed in the New York Times entitled "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police"? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

I think the morale of the story is, people fall for slogans and slogans always turn out shit results. Trump's MAGA, well everyone has a different definition of what it would take to "Make America Great Again." Some might even argue, like myself, that if we say that, we should really take off the "Again" part. I am pretty sure most slogans that get chanted, we could come to the same conclusion, slogans are shit. Trying to have a catch phrase that captures a large and complex idea, is a bad idea.

To Diversify. Obama had the whole "Change" thing. Well what exactly we we changing? And a lot of people chanted about change, but I bet different people had a different idea of what that change looked like.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#115

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

> For example, defining Democrats by "defund the police", or defining Republicans as the party of "white nationalism".

This is a false equivalence.

On the one hand, the Democratic party has unequivocally rejected “defund the police” on multiple occasions. First in the 2020 primary by electing a presidential candidate who explicitly rejected the slogan, and continues to do so as president; then by excluding it from its platform altogether; and most recently by a nearly unanimous bipartisan vote in the senate to denounce the slogan. So the record is quite clear that Democrats do not in fact stand for “defund the police” beyond a loud minority.

On the other hand, Republican senators have unanimously refused to renew the Voting Rights Act, which until 2006 enjoyed overwhelming bipartisan support. The VRA is one of the enduring legacies of the civil rights movement and has been a bulwark in protecting Black citizens in particular from disenfranchisement in the southern states. This is evidenced by the fact that, since the VRA has lapsed, virtually all Republican-controlled states have resurrected the same sweeping restrictions on the right to vote that MLK and others marched against. Let’s not even get into the January 6 attack on the capitol which was instigated and carried out by openly white supremacist organizations and which, to this day, the Republican party refuses to denounce, probably because so many of its own leadership is directly implicated.

So, yes, the Republican party is now defined by white nationalism. This is an established fact, and you being uncomfortable with it does not make it less true.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most comments explaining "defund the police" seem to settle on a different meaning, Most comments explaining "defund the police" are from people who disapprove of it. The above is exactly how I've always heard it described. If they wanted to abolish the police, they could have just said "abolish the police."

> If they wanted to abolish the police, they could have just said "abolish the police." Interesting. What form would you expect this to take? Maybe an Op-Ed in the New York Times entitled "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police"? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

I'd argue that this is proof that the refund the police people mean something different.

Right like if you have me saying "defend" and someone else saying "abolish" implying that I mean "abolish" specifically because I'm not using the word abolish seems strange.

I'd also suggest actually reading that op-ed, it's discussing a process that would take decades and specifically arguing against a "reformist" approach to improving police forces.

When you have stories like https://theintercept.com/2021/12/18/little-rock-police-chief... and a former captain of the NYPD signalling that as mayor doesn't trust the police to protect him (after the police union "declared war" on the prior mayor), I'm inclined to maybe believe that policing as an institution in the US needs to be reworked from the ground up.

This should become obvious, and defund starts to make more sense when I say that systemically, US police forces have few or no incentives to actually decrease crime and counterintuitively are often rewarded when crime increases. That the incentives between "the police" and citizens are so completely out of alignment makes you think.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key behind understanding the guy is he's always defending imperialism and the current power structure as the correct, natural and inevitable course of events, with no other alternative possible. He's been playing that same song for decades. You already know what his position on everything is and how he'll argue for it. The real amazing thing is how much he's committed to it

Isn't this an adhominem attack on the person's character without refuting the points? I agree with OP that some of the points are ridiculous, but why assassinate character like this?

first off who cares you can insult people sometimes it helps.

Anyway it's not "character assassination" if it's true. I don't know enough about this person's work over time but.

> always defending imperialism and the current power structure as the correct, natural and inevitable course of events, with no other alternative possible

That does describe some people I can think of, so it's at least possible this is a fair description of his position.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#118
>>Identity politics aims to change culture and behavior in ways that have real material benefits for many people.

>>By turning a spotlight on narrower experiences of injustice, identity politics has brought about welcome changes in cultural norms and has produced concrete public policies that have helped many people. The Black Lives Matter movement has made police departments across the United States much more conscious of the way they treat minorities, even though police abuse still persists.

This is another false, politically correct account.

The impact of the Black Lives Matter movement, on black lives, has been devastating.

What this racial justice movement led to is riots, wherein 18 people were murdered in one night in Chicago:

https://forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/08/18-people-were...

And massively less aggressive policing, which led to 1,003 homicides in Chicago in 2021, twice that of 2019.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Report-paints-grim-...

The reason is that police are arresting fewer people, and solving fewer homicides:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022/1/3/22858995/chicago...

“Many of our officers are not arresting people, are letting crimes that happen right in front of them go by because they don’t want to be misconstrued as being racist or being held liable for any kind of misconceived notions of brutality or whatever,” he said."

Consequently, revenge killings, where one gang retaliates against another for a previous, unsolved, homicide, have skyrocketed.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#119
post #39

Quoted post unavailable.

Did you actually read it, though? He says "there is nothing wrong with identity politics as such; it is a natural and inevitable response to injustice. But the tendency of identity politics to focus on cultural issues has diverted energy and attention away from serious thinking on the part of progressives about how to reverse the 30-year trend in most liberal democracies toward greater socioeconomic inequality."

> But the tendency of identity politics to focus on cultural issues has diverted energy and attention away from serious thinking on the part of progressives about how to reverse the 30-year trend in most liberal democracies toward greater socioeconomic inequality.

This is demonstrably untrue though. There's no conspiracy, intersectionality is growing, because it's a useful framework for finding similarity and solidarity across boundaries that used to be sharper like race, language, disability, religion.

The claim makes no sense, this is not how attention works. If more people are thinking and talking about something there will be more energy and attention on it for that time, not less.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they wanted to abolish the police, they could have just said "abolish the police." Interesting. What form would you expect this to take? Maybe an Op-Ed in the New York Times entitled "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police"? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

I'd argue that this is proof that the refund the police people mean something different. Right like if you have me saying "defend" and someone else saying "abolish" implying that I mean "abolish" specifically because I'm not using the word abolish seems strange. I'd also suggest actually reading that op-ed, it's discussing a process that would take decades and specifically arguing against a "reformist" approach to im…

Good lord a bunch of typos in the first part of that, and now too late to edit (I think I noticed one and fixed it in the wrong place, making things worse...)

Should be

> I'd argue that this is proof that the defund the police people mean something different. > Right like if you have me saying "defund" and someone else saying "abolish" implying that I mean "abolish" specifically because I'm not using the word abolish seems strange.

If that wasn't obvious.

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