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Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

reuters.com

111–120 of 189 posts

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#111
post #9

The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

> say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker

if those stickers contained email address rather than telegram channel then would we consider banning email services? Blocking Telegram because it is being used for drugs is absurd. Telegram is a messenger and if people are using it for drugs then what do you expect Telegram to do?

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#112
post #64
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its okay for people to leak addresses of politicians and call on other to kill them? They match your interests and they can organize. Oh wait I know you yourself know nothing about this situation. Oh wait you yourself never got death threats to your personal mail and home? Oh wait its not like the article is saying that closing it would be the last resort...

Whataboutism isn't helping. Obviously the answer to your question is no, but you could do the same with snailmail.

Not that easy, not that cheap, not that open and not on that scale.

Which are all important points.

And again Telegram is breaking german/eu law and they are ignoring it even if they get a letter.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#113

This will be interesting. Some background for the discussion: - Germany has a different take on freedom of speech from the US. There are things that you cannot say (holocaust denial, inciting racial violence). We can argue about this, but it's deeply ingrained in the legal system and unrealistic to change - Germany has a special law regulating responsibilities and content moderation in social media (NetzDG, think sec…

Yeah, and that wasn't the only example. Here is another recent one[1]: German soldier (so a guy who had prolonged training and access to serious weapons) gives German government an "ultimatum". He was a heavy telegram user as well.

I am generally a proponent of as much free speech as possible, as long as it is lawful, and the laws in question are not just authoritarian wet dreams. Inciting violence or making threats is not lawful. It's unlawful not just in Germany but in most other places including the US too, and for good reason.

When it comes to these kinds of German telegram groups we're not even talking about thinly-veiled threats where there is wiggle room in interpretation, we're talking about people saying "we're at war and must fight until every politician and traitor is executed. Arm yourself today!".

Telegram groups promoting these kinds of threats daily with tens of thousands of members exist, and telegram provides tools to create and promote such groups easily. So I am not buying any claim that they are a mere messenger service.

This is therefore one of the few cases where I do not mind the government demanding the company take action, or else face legal consequences up to effectively shutting them down within Germany.

What gives me pause at the same time is that German politicians usually do not just demand Telegram shut down clearly illegal speech like threats, but also constantly talk about vague "misinformation"/"fake news"/"conspiracy theories". As much as "fake news" sucks, it cannot be the government in a free society deciding what is "real news".

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5q5vx/german-soldier-covid-...

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#116
post #49
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the issue. People (should) have a right to meet other people with similar interests and organise.

So its okay for people to leak addresses of politicians and call on other to kill them? They match your interests and they can organize. Oh wait I know you yourself know nothing about this situation. Oh wait you yourself never got death threats to your personal mail and home? Oh wait its not like the article is saying that closing it would be the last resort...

Perhaps the problem is in CENTRALIZED (or federated) addressing systems like the postal mail or DNS?

Think about it … you wouldn’t get SPAM emails and calls or DDOS atacks if you only gave out capabilities to contact you to your existing contacts, and gave close contacts the ability to refer people to you, and if one friend abused their capability of handing out such invites, then you invalidate all their future invites.

Same with the mail. Why should people easily know your address? Oh yeah… because it is published on some LARGE CENTRALIZED SITE UNENCRYPTED. Okay, so if unencrypted information about hard-to-change things such as your physical address gets out, then yes it is game over since geographic coordinates are static and moving is expensive.

But online, this is not the case. The neywork can remap things periodically. Or you can just rejoin at a different address / number and update all your contacts (except the traitors lol).

Look, the country’s post office could even have such an addressing scheme that shifts the internal addresses and maps to physical addresses only on a need to know basis for physical mail delivery. And again… who delivers your mail? A CENTRALIZED mail service? If you had couriers employed by many private companies, you’d just give them info on a need to know basis yourself, and they woild have a hard time combining it into one giant database.

You see, most of the time some DDOS attack happens on a person or website it is because somewhere, some giant centralized site published your address on some centralized routing scheme.

And taking it further … most wars and large scale violence happens because people joined forces to attack some other group of people. Ultimately that is what we have to solve, to make it exponentially harder to organize large groups for “unapproved” uses (there can be a whitelist of approved uses such as 1. agreeing on industrial standards, and 2. saving the world from a threat, whether a virus, an asteroid, rising seas or whatever).

If you’re trying to join forces for anything else, you’re probably doing it at the expense of others and they will join forces too (eg cartels of doctors vs single payer health insurance).

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

> say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker if those stickers contained email address rather than telegram channel then would we consider banning email services? Blocking Telegram because it is being used for drugs is absurd. Telegram is a messenger and if people are using it for drugs then what do you exp…

[deleted]

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#118

Maybe they could license the Great Firewall from China, they have many years of experience with that kind of thing. While they are at it, they could look into other fancy tech from China, for example video surveillance that checks if people conform to Corona rules. After all, why not - China seems to be so successful, what could go wrong?

Great idea!

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#119
post #103
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is not honest. There already are laws against doxing and threats. We don't need to censor a whole platform because of that. Especially if it's done just so we can conveniently muzzle groups that just want to protest against masks, vaccines, or lockdowns.

But that's the point - Telegram refuses to honor these laws. There are court rulings demanding Telegram to remove content, which Telegram ignores, hence the threats of banning the entire platform.

Does telegram have employees in Germany? Why would the German government have control over any corporation on the planet?

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#120
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

I don't see the issue. People (should) have a right to meet other people with similar interests and organise.

Organizing a crime in conjunction with other people is an offence in basically every jurisdiction, including the US.
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