Live data from Hacker News

The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

newyorker.com

111–120 of 175 posts

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#111
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you think that every case should be tried, even if it's plainly obvious the perpetrator is guilty? If the perpetrator is willing to plead guilty, there is no need for a trial. Threatening people with massively larger penalties if they exercise their right to a trial rather than take a plea deal (often time limited before the defense has a chance to see the evidence) is coercive extortion and is morally wrong. Th…

While you make very valid points about plea deals in general, I don’t think they apply in this specific case. Swartz was very rich, and well represented. He also actually did the thing in question, and demonstrated consciousness of guilt. It’s okay for guilty people to be offered plea deals. It’s actually probably in their best interest sometimes.

> He also actually did the thing in question, and demonstrated consciousness of guilt.

He did a thing, that doesn't mean that thing qualified as a felony, or even a crime. It certainly did not merit 50 years in prison.

> It’s okay for guilty people to be offered plea deals. It’s actually probably in their best interest sometimes.

It is simply not OK to threaten people with penalties that are well more than an order of magnitude higher than the plea deal.

This isn't the kind of plea deal that furthers justice by obtaining a cooperative witness in a more serious case. This sort of plea deal is offered to advance the Prosecutor's career.

> Swartz was very rich, and well represented.

As the article explains, Swartz was out of money, well into debt, and faced with begging people for money to continue fighting the case.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#112
post #89
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you 10,000x over. The reporting about this aspect really couldn’t have been any worse and drove too many equally misinformed opinion pieces. And agree completely with your assessment of prosecutors and press releases - I told my US Attorney that I only wanted to see him on TV after a conviction. Alas, I hate defending prosecutors, but it seems completely unfair to blame her for his death. As you suggest, my gue…

This, to be fair, is the biggest problem with the CFAA. It's sort of an inchoate statute (you generally use computers as a means to conduct other offenses --- in fact, some of the reason we have a CFAA in the first place is that legislators felt that there weren't statutes that addressed computer crimes that didn't have immediate financial benefits, which themselves could be charged as fraud). The major sentencing kn…

> Again, though: the 2 million dollar figure is highly implausible. Prosecutors could have argued for it (they can argue anything they want), but it's hard to see them getting it for a non-remunerative crime that involved publishing academic journal articles.

Actually this ran in parallel with the tail end of the Jammie Thomas-Rasset lawsuit, in which the various damage figures thrown around for sharing two albums' worth of stale, degraded-quality top-40 songs did include one in the seven-figure range.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't incarcerating a person who's not a danger to others and who's crime had no harmful outcomes a waste of everyone's time and money? Yes, but I think the solution is to make fewer things criminal through the democratic process first. Enforcement of laws is important. It’s one thing to put people in jail who don’t belong there. But according to this article it kinda seems like Swartz did deserve some jail time. H…

Enforcement of laws is important. Agreed, unfortunately it seems that we selectively enforce laws based on political pressure. Look at the numerous high profile cases targeting white collar criminals, for example with Purdue and the Sackler family. They got away with zero jail time and a slap on the wrist (financially), all because they were able to hire the right political actors who could influence the outcome of l…

> Look at the numerous high profile cases targeting white collar criminals, for example with Purdue and the Sackler family.

Don’t give up hope yet!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202...

> I'm sure if Swartz was similarly connected (for example a family who was a Senator), this whole thing would have gone away quietly.

I think Swartz made himself an easy political target without realizing it. From his perspective, he was just a guy in a room trying to “save the world.”

From the outside a different picture can be painted. He positioned himself as an activist, and amassed a great deal of resources and even an active following. He was well connected in that he was on a first name basis with billionaires, and probably even had the personal numbers of a few in his phone.

So I think all this made Swartz a target without him really intending to be one. Or at least he didn’t think that in the process of “saving the world”, that the world would fight back. That seems to be one of the central points of TFA at least.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#114
post #97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Plea bargains are a form of extortion, and should not be part of the legal system. So you think that every case should be tried, even if it's plainly obvious the perpetrator is guilty? After all, even if the perpetrator has a 1% chance of winning, there's no reason not to go to trial under that system.

> So you think that every case should be tried, even if it's plainly obvious the perpetrator is guilty? If the perpetrator is willing to plead guilty, there is no need for a trial. Threatening people with massively larger penalties if they exercise their right to a trial rather than take a plea deal (often time limited before the defense has a chance to see the evidence) is coercive extortion and is morally wrong. Th…

What about giving a more lenient sentence if the person is remorseful and admits what they did was wrong? Because that's effectively the same thing as a plea deal. Even innocent people would still sometimes admit guilt and apologize, destroying their chances of winning at trial either way, to get a shorter sentence.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#115
Everything ever written about Aaron and everything Aaron ever wrote are part of one continuous humming noise that no one can hear. The difficulties Aaron lived need to be judged or diagnosed or both. There is neither redemption nor responsibility, but guilt and symptoms of a larger social or spiritual sickness.

I've spent a large portion of my life blaming everyone including Aaron for everything and looking for heroes who would be able to make good on any of what seemed reasonable in his promises. In considering the worth of all these hours of reflections, I can't say I have changed my opinions but I have changed.

What has been written about Aaron's life and accomplishments, let it suffice. The meta text is all now. Not "who was he?", but "what do we think of him?". This is what he wanted, and possibly because it concerns him, he was basically wrong, and this conversation is mostly unhelpful. I propose to ask "what do we think of what we think of him?".

Those who could never see the value in information and knowledge have their knives out for a largely harmless and innocent man, while those who think hacking JSTOR would have unleashed a new age of enlightenment have yet to become cynical and stupid. His friends and family have largely avoided these debates and tried to elevate his achievements and explain his incongruities with compassion and grace, without taking sides, either out of fear of further government overreach or out of a sense that no one can speak to Aaron's entire belief set, and whether it was or would have been coherent and effective.

As much as he held strong opinions on the subjects, he was trying to open a conversation about data, privacy, freedom of information etc., and he encountered a lot of people who realized that that conversation has extremely negative implications for data-driven business models, whether those were content publication models or user data ad-tech models. The corporate-academe was never willing to discuss any of it openly or honestly and was never going to leap to his defense as he might have thought at the time, as a socially-underdeveloped young man.

He probably got it too late that corporate academics are not conservative so much as cowardly, not so much concerned as paranoid, not unaware but purposefully ignorant. And he certainly understood, too late, that the government is these things to an entirely incomprehensible degree. Whatever the personal motivations or ideologies of whichever prosecutor threw the book at Aaron, "the government" wanted him punished.

Ultimately information is the scariest possible thing for any government, and Aaron had spent too much of his life knocking on the doors of the most closed-rank, insular and self-protecting people on earth, demanding a better public understanding of and regulation of data. He did this at a time when NSA et al. were harvesting unprecedented volumes of personal data and while trillions of private-side investment dollars were being spent on doing the same with no accountability.

The hero-thief debate, and the autist-scumbag debate are for kids and morons like the New Yorker. Viz the fact he struggled socially---and to such an extent!--- is a "dark-side", warping his personality traits, his social and personal disorders, and his policy recommendations into a nice big meaningless pile.

As another commenter here noted, like anyone with a soul he was a complex person.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn’t it always been corporate interests in academia? Stanford was a joke when it was founded, MIT was being petitioned into becoming a tech school. Patrons of sciences have always been funded by private interests, there isn’t any corruption. > This 'public-private' partnership situation has corrupted American academics, placing the profitability of research well ahead of the accuracy and reliability of research. Pr…

As I noted, it's really Bayh-Dole exclusive licensing that's the problem. Make all exclusively licensed federally financed patents held by academic institutions available to anyone who wants to utilize them via a no-fee license, that's the fix. Prior to that, if academics wanted to get involved in industry and make some money thereby, the route to take was called consulting, which seems fine with me, as long as confl…

I’m reading the law and I don’t see that issue. All the issues are from the requirements of the FDA, making it patent free solves nothing, unless you’re talking about another industry, the cases are all from healthcare patents from the wiki. This isn’t new or something unusual, most of the issues are in healthcare and the requirements to produce them are not going to be fixed by removing patents.

Academic papers do submit sponsorships and conflicts of interest, and there’s also the case of academia wanting cutting edge equipment from private companies and doing deals with them. This is much more honest than the smoking research, the federal government has an interest in maintaining patent law, it has no incentive to give free access to no fee licensing. There’s lots of laws with access to healthcare information, which requires industry knowledge where the information is freely given to corporations to do research on, which would not be allowed federally. The researchers are not usually working because they’re interested in making their research public information, and while post grads are funded by government, they are free to develop royalty free information, they choose not to and the government wants to partially fund corporations. I don’t see the problem, people want to make money and they want to do cutting edge research.

I see academia and research papers as advertising rather than a patent minefield. There are plenty of people who want to work for the common good, but the government wants to fund private entities to produce products, government contracts is what the US does instead of its own production.

I see computer science papers with non of these issues under the current law.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#117
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree that "the system" punished a smart altruist. As this article makes clear, Swartz did something he knew to be illegal. This was not his first brush with mass copyright violation. He was then prosecuted for his crimes. IMO, the charges were vastly disproportionate, but you expose yourself to prosecutorial overreach when you (knowingly) commit crimes. This appears to have been a trend with Swartz. He seems…

I think it's a big deal that the charges were disproportionate in this case. Maybe what he did was illegal on paper, but it was not unethical. Disturbingly, there seems to be increasingly many things in our modern society which are ethical yet illegal. You'd think that in those cases, authorities should be more lenient; that they would have a sense of what is right and wrong from the perspective of the average citize…

I don't agree that what he did was ethical. For me, and I think many people, it is clear that what he lied and stole. The works that he stole fall under clearly defined and well established copyright laws and which have licenses to which Swartz would have had to agree. He knew all of this and stole them anyway. He knew exactly what he was doing. This is why he hid his laptop and concealed his face when retrieving that laptop.

In terms of how this IP is copyrighted and distributed, that should be corrected at the funding level. The U.S. government (and other funding sources) should forbid publication and distribution via publications that do not make the information freely available for any science which they fund. But... we live in society of laws. You don't get to just decide which you like and thus will follow.

> right and wrong is increasingly being decided from the perspective of a tiny minority

I'm not sure I agree with you. I suspect your point might be motivated by a worldview (i.e. an ideology), as a opposed to be borne by evidence.

But I could definitely be wrong. To that end, point me to a law that is 1) written from the perspective of a tiny minority of elites and 2) forbids something that most people would consider ethical. By this I mean, not your outsider opinion on the law, but rather, real evidence that it is written to serve the elites and that the forbidden activities are considered perfectly ethical by the majority of people.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#118

"His girlfriend Taren always dealt with taxi-drivers, with waitresses." "The guy in front of me’s leaning all the way back, but I’m in the last row so my seat doesn’t go back, and I have to lift my legs up to stretch out a muscle that was sitting funny while I was asleep" I feel like Aaron Swartz was never truly an adult, just a boyish intellectual. I can't imagine his submissive behavior was a net positive to his me…

So what? Why do you need to conform to a socially constructed persona?

well if you're just an everyday introvert, then you need some promting, or else to summon the courage on your own to overcome your aversion to social situations. (digression, but the internet is a big help for this nowadays. you can watch youtube videos that walks you through how to ride the bus or whatever, for people too scared of embarrassing themslves to try).

On the other hand if you have a social anxiety you probably need some kind of stronger help to be able to function.

Either way the alternative of avoiding much of the world and relying on oehters to get by probably isn't preferable.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#119
post #97
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Plea bargains are a form of extortion, and should not be part of the legal system. So you think that every case should be tried, even if it's plainly obvious the perpetrator is guilty? After all, even if the perpetrator has a 1% chance of winning, there's no reason not to go to trial under that system.

> So you think that every case should be tried, even if it's plainly obvious the perpetrator is guilty? If the perpetrator is willing to plead guilty, there is no need for a trial. Threatening people with massively larger penalties if they exercise their right to a trial rather than take a plea deal (often time limited before the defense has a chance to see the evidence) is coercive extortion and is morally wrong. Th…

> If the perpetrator is willing to plead guilty, there is no need for a trial.

I don't really think courts should take guilty pleas. I believe in some times/places in the middle ages, courts would not take guilty pleas in case the prisoner had gotten coerced into pleading. Sometimes, we have people with mental illness or other issues that will plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit.

Along the same lines of "reasonable doubt" in the US generally being enough to escape criminal conviction, I think we should err on the side of safety and perhaps even inefficiency in (not) letting the state exercise its monopoly power of force, coercion, and imprisonment against anyone for any reason, ever.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#120
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, to be fair, is the biggest problem with the CFAA. It's sort of an inchoate statute (you generally use computers as a means to conduct other offenses --- in fact, some of the reason we have a CFAA in the first place is that legislators felt that there weren't statutes that addressed computer crimes that didn't have immediate financial benefits, which themselves could be charged as fraud). The major sentencing kn…

> Again, though: the 2 million dollar figure is highly implausible. Prosecutors could have argued for it (they can argue anything they want), but it's hard to see them getting it for a non-remunerative crime that involved publishing academic journal articles. Actually this ran in parallel with the tail end of the Jammie Thomas-Rasset lawsuit, in which the various damage figures thrown around for sharing two albums' w…

The story of the Thomas-Rasset suit --- a civil suit, not a 2B1.1(b) criminal sentence argument --- is basically about how those 7 figure sums don't hold up in actual court. And that suit was about material with clear commercial value, not 1942 editions of botany journals. I think this example supports my point, rather than challenging it.
Post reply on HN