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Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

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Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#111

Post by avmich »

tomcam wrote: post #17

Some tough love here, from the parallel universe you. It was people like you in the late 1970s who inspired me to be a programmer (literally, talking to Hughes aircraft programmers on the bus to high school about the JOVIAL language), but one thing I knew by the time I was about 12, say, 1973 or so, was that aerospace engineering in the Hughes aircraft world was boom and bust. I did not learn programming until I was…

> But I haven’t heard from you is that you have tried to adjust to the market.

Modern market seems to ask from programmers something other than programming. Peter Norvig in the interview to Lex Fridman mentioned that today software is made of building blocks from Internet, not designed from requirements as it used to. For some reasons companies prefer to endlessly lose in dependencies wars rather than have good arguments for why something is developed and something is taken from outside.

The OP problem is rather pervasive, there are some pretty good specialists who can't find a position in months and years because market requirements seems to be rather odd. People who obviously can program and have experience solving problems for business find themselves expected to know technologies du jour when those could be some questionable rehashes of ideas of previous years.

> if you want to get paid what programmers get paid these days

The problem is today's programmers are paid for knowing - preferably early - the hot technologies instead of analyzing and solving the problems with good tools. If a person has enough experience, he may understandably question the kind of a hamster race, so these modern technologies look poor for him.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#112

Post by satisfice »

I am 55. 39 years since I got my first programming job. I long ago lost my interest in production coding, but my coding skills are highly valued in the testing/training/consulting world.

Part of your problem is that the world expects guys of our age to have moved into leadership positions. For instance, I have two part-time consulting gigs right now where I do coding to get the kids started with certain test tools that they didn’t realize they should have created before I came along. I’m ostensibly coaching and training. But coding is a helpful part of that.

Another part of your problem is it sounds like you don’t know anyone. I got both my current gigs because former colleagues hired me. Socialize!

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#113

Post by tomcam »

avmich wrote: post #111
tomcam wrote: post #17

Some tough love here, from the parallel universe you. It was people like you in the late 1970s who inspired me to be a programmer (literally, talking to Hughes aircraft programmers on the bus to high school about the JOVIAL language), but one thing I knew by the time I was about 12, say, 1973 or so, was that aerospace engineering in the Hughes aircraft world was boom and bust. I did not learn programming until I was…

> But I haven’t heard from you is that you have tried to adjust to the market. Modern market seems to ask from programmers something other than programming. Peter Norvig in the interview to Lex Fridman mentioned that today software is made of building blocks from Internet, not designed from requirements as it used to. For some reasons companies prefer to endlessly lose in dependencies wars rather than have good argum…

But that’s how the market works. I have been making bets on what technology would be useful for the last 35 years. There was no one to help me forecast it. I just do things like read hacker news and similar publications. By sticking to the basics while also focusing on areas that I liked I did pretty well. We get paid more than average because there are risks.

Also, I chose some hot technologies that I could tolerate because I understood that’s just where it is. I also learned algorithms on my own and understood when to apply them. If the market asked for hot technologies, you shouldn’t have to adapt. Otherwise you should accept a lower paying job.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#114

Post by tomcam »

matmatmatmat wrote: post #34
tomcam wrote: post #17

Some tough love here, from the parallel universe you. It was people like you in the late 1970s who inspired me to be a programmer (literally, talking to Hughes aircraft programmers on the bus to high school about the JOVIAL language), but one thing I knew by the time I was about 12, say, 1973 or so, was that aerospace engineering in the Hughes aircraft world was boom and bust. I did not learn programming until I was…

I have this same mindset and the same plan: Keep working, and keep learning. Do you have any insight from your many decades of experience that you would like to share? I would appreciate it.

Thanks for asking. It was a combination of studying the market carefully, taking measured risks, and trying to make myself more competent than 80% of my peers (I am not particularly smart and I learn very slowly, so I never expected to be much better than that).

I have always studied for one career path, and a backup. The thought about the backup was that if I couldn’t get what I wanted most, I would still have something I enjoyed. So I keep up on C but specialize in Go, which was a bit risky 10 years ago.

Another tip is that I have chosen areas that I like, but that are also somewhat challenging. For example, when I started out the first thing I did was learn assembly language because I knew it scared other programmers. Because I didn’t have a degree, I wanted to choose something that would make me irresistible to hire without a degree.

Finally, I thought for myself. When Microsoft called to hire me 25 years ago their own people were fleeing like rats from a sinking ship, because it appeared from the press at the time that Microsoft was losing the Internet wars. My own coworkers were selling their stock like crazy when I joined, and they said the good all days were gone. When I left four years later, my stock options had appreciated 1300%. It wasn’t that I was blindly supporting Microsoft, it was that I chose to believe my own eyes as opposed to what people who had nothing to do with the company were reporting about it.

When I left Microsoft it was during the dot com crash. I bought a small company that provided a service to eBay users and it made in the two digit millions over the next 20 years. My former friends and Microsoft were polite but uncomprehending when I did it, because there just wasn’t any concept of charging for websites at the time. I risk a small part of my retirement fund to buy the company, but not enough that it would’ve hurt the family drastically if I failed. Measured risk.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#115

Post by tomcam »

therealdavesky wrote: post #93
tomcam wrote: post #17

Some tough love here, from the parallel universe you. It was people like you in the late 1970s who inspired me to be a programmer (literally, talking to Hughes aircraft programmers on the bus to high school about the JOVIAL language), but one thing I knew by the time I was about 12, say, 1973 or so, was that aerospace engineering in the Hughes aircraft world was boom and bust. I did not learn programming until I was…

swift seems like a good choice for me, and i am about to release an AR app in swift that produces algorithmic music ... what do you think about swift?

Apple is greatly increasing its use of swift so that seems like a strong bet to me.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#116

Post by tomcam »

cc101 wrote: post #45

I have two suggestions. I'm 75 with 54 years programming experience. I got a job because the employer (a university) couldn't find anyone to do the work at a pathetic salary. That's suggestion number one: find an employer who is desperate. The misconceptions and prejudices of the employment system would prevent my resume-application from ever reaching the person making the hiring decision. The second suggestion is pr…

Great answer. And you can use that as a launching point for your next job. If you’re smart, and the job is sort of easy, you can use some of your hours on the current gig to study for the next one.

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#117

Post by GianFabien »

therealdavesky wrote: post #75
fdsfre4532 wrote: post #10

You should contact a technical recruiter. There are I'm sure thousands of software development openings in your area from companies you have never heard of but with salaries that are 60-80% of FAANG.

i forgot to indicate where I am. if I was in silicon valley it may be a bit easier to get references, currently i am in the rainforest on the big island and they sub out all their tech to the mainland here.

Ok! Are you planning to stay there and try to work remotely? Or are you willing to relocate to an environment with more on-site work available?

Re: Ask HN: Been writing code for 40 years and can't get hired

#120

Post by GianFabien »

therealdavesky wrote: post #69
w_t_payne wrote: post #2

Maybe getting contracting gigs might be easier than finding perm roles?

contracting jobs are great, and I love them. its all about getting referrals, that has been the best route to new jobs, at least for me

In reading through this thread, I am not getting a clear picture.

What has changed and resulted in contracting jobs no longer being an option?

Personally I prefer to bypass recruiters and pitch to those with a compelling need for what I can deliver. Requires more up-front research but once you demonstrate your track record in delivering results the hiring process becomes smoother.

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