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Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

askageologist.blogspot.com

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Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#111
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried that in the excellent documentary The Core (2003) but as I recall they didn't all survive.

However a separate documentary (Armageddon, 1998) illustrated the successful use of nuclear devices on objects of a seemingly intractable scale with extremely few casualties. The makers of the documentary also chose an excellent score to accompany their organic capture of a moving love story along with the antics of a plucky group of misfits that came together in a crisis. It's the sort of thing you can only shake yo…

> a plucky group of misfits that came together in a crisis.

The related 2000 documentary 'Space Cowboys' also provides excellent insights into how generation-Boomer skills can be invaluable when modern computer systems fail catastrophically.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#112

"People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater." I can well attest to that. A year or so after the major eruption of Mount St. Helens on May 18, 1980, I had…

> "People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater."

Maybe volcanologists who don't think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a peeved hydrogen bomb up close.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2000/fs036-00/

USGS estimated the blast from Mt. St. Helens was 7 megatons and 17 megatons of other thermal energy released (I guess most of that is magma flowing out).

The early large fusion bombs are comparable to that, actually bigger. The largest one ever tested was 50 megatons and had a design capable of 100 megatons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtCTzbh4mNQ.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#113
post #91

"People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater." I can well attest to that. A year or so after the major eruption of Mount St. Helens on May 18, 1980, I had…

That sounds amazing! I hiked up to the rim of MSH a couple decades ago, but didn't go down into it. I can attest that it's pretty big in there. And the sight of the giant blown-down trees for miles around is incredible.

I'm a long-time hiker too, and that Mt St Helens hike I'd have loved to have done.

(When a kid, my parents' home was within five minutes walking distance of a national park: https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/blue.... In effect, it was our backyard and in those days we could get into all sorts of trouble without helicopter parents bothering us or cramping our style, (back then it was common for us kids at the age of 10 or 11 to go roaming in those valleys without supervision). However, there were no active volcanoes, the nearest to my home being about 20 miles away and it has been dormant for millions of years: https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/moun....)

When you mentioned that you were hiking at MSH several decades ago, it suddenly dawned on me that that flight of mine was 40 years ago (hell those years seem to have disappeared quickly). As I said, what I saw was nothing but destruction and desolation, but presumably by the time of your visit some 20 years later you would have seen new growth starting to take hold everywhere. Even so, from some pictures I've just seen on the web, 40 years still isn't long enough for nature to hide the event.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#114

"People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater." I can well attest to that. A year or so after the major eruption of Mount St. Helens on May 18, 1980, I had…

> "People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater." Maybe volcanologists who don't think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano j…

"Mt. St. Helens was 7 megatons and 17 megatons of other thermal energy released..."

Well, at minimum, that's still between 400 and 700 times the energy released during the Hiroshima explosion. That's over two magnitudes more energy and I'm glad I wasn't anywhere near it at the time. ;-)

The Tsar Bomba (which I remember as a kid) had to be made to prove a point but as Kurchatov, Sakharov etc. seemed to realize at the time, making the 100 megaton bomb wouldn't add much to the argument (presumably other than additional cost). There was no point making a bigger bomb as the additional energy essentially would have been blown out into space thus not substantially increasing the blast area.

Anyway, that's not the point which is that even on piddling little earth nature has ways of producing huge amounts of destructive energy. As for supernovas, etc. except by way of mathematical calculations, I don't think the average human can actually contemplate or imagine energy on such a scale.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#115
post #23
post #21

Also if you apply hydraulic equations to the lave through such a small diameter borehole, you quickly find that you would NOT be in control of anything and you'd probably do more to trigger a large eruption - the velocity of lava out of such a borehole would be hypersonic at least and quickly open the borehole to form a new vent equal to an actual eruption.

Hypersonic lava sounds AWESOME!

Lookup pyroclastic flow.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#116

"People who think a nuclear device is comparable to the energy released by a volcano just haven't seen a restless volcano up close. They are a whole lot bigger than they seem to be in the films. Mount St Helens is a relatively small volcano, yet it still took me nearly 6 hours to walk out of the center crater." I can well attest to that. A year or so after the major eruption of Mount St. Helens on May 18, 1980, I had…

External links to your photos are definitely on topic. Please post them for us!

Yeah you're right. But I think I spoke too soon. I've been looking and I've still not found them yet (but I know that I still have them). I have over 30,000 slides in those little yellow Kodak boxes and a similar number of color and B&W negatives and to date I've only managed to scan about 1% — 2% of them!

I shouldn't be allowed to sort and cull my own photos as I'm too possessive of them and I don't trust other members of my family or friends who are in the photos to do so either (as they've been known to spirit away technically excellent photographs of themselves that don't show them in a flattering light).

Then there's the entropy problem: in say a bracket of photos the ones with the best focus, composure etc. don't necessarily have the best exposure, color balance etc. so I can't decide what to discard and so keep putting off the hard cull (at least 3/4 of them need to go).

However, in the interim, I found this site (and I'm sure there are many more with a bit of looking): https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/eruption-mount-st-helens-19.... This site has some excellent photos and many of the aerial shots are very similar to mine. (If anyone else has found similar sites then post links here.)

I draw your attention to the photos with descriptions that begin the following commentary:

'Aerial view of timber blowdown, destroyed by the May 18 eruption...' and the two images (one removed) underneath it.

'Mount St. Helens, shortly after the eruption of May 18, 1980.' — compare this with the first two images of the volcano before it exploded and you'll get some idea of how much of the side of the volcano blew out during the eruption.

'The slopes of Smith Creek valley, east of Mount St. Helens, show trees blown down by the May 18, 1980 lateral blast.'

'Denuded trees lay like matchsticks in the changed landscape around Mount St. Helens, shown two days after the eruption, on May 20, 1980.'

• The last image 'Satellites in orbit and scientists on the ground still monitor the mountain and track the recovery of Mt. St. Helens.' puts it all into perspective. Imagine me in the plane flying out of the crater (through airspace that had been previously solid rock) and been confronted with the 'matchstick' alignment of tree trunks radiating out from the new 'mouth' of the crater. The 'spokes of the wheel' alignment I mentioned was very obvious at this point.

Unfortunately, the panorama I saw from the plane's window was not be easily captured at the time by me or others as most of us didn't own cameras that could take panoramic images. The 4:3 aspect ratio of old camera images somewhat detracted from this amazing spectacle.

...Back to searching. :-)

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference would be (very simplified) the one between poking a controlled hole with a needle in an only somewhat inflated water balloon now, causing a small but steady stream of water to push out, vs. waiting until it fills up and bursts completely, one is way more violent than the other.

Supervolcanoes generally aren't violent, though. They're just really, really big. It's the ash and gases that do the damage.

>Supervolcanoes generally aren't violent, though.

Yes, they are. You're probably thinking of pyroclastic flow, which is also quite violent on its own. It's the waterfall of everything in the eruption column falling back to earth, and contains solid and molten rock, ash, deadly chemicals, and superheated gas, all traveling at hundreds of miles per hour.

>>A supervolcano is a volcano that has had an eruption with a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 8, the largest recorded value on the index. This means the volume of deposits for such an eruption is greater than 1,000 cubic kilometers (240 cubic miles).

The most recent supervolcano eruption was what formed Lake Taupo, New Zealand:

>>The Oruanui eruption of the Taupō Volcano was the world's largest known eruption in the past 70,000 years, with a Volcanic Explosivity Index of 8. It occurred around 26,500 years ago and generated approximately 430 km3 (100 cu mi) of pyroclastic fall deposits, 320 km3 (77 cu mi) of pyroclastic density current (PDC) deposits (mostly ignimbrite) and 420 km3 (100 cu mi) of primary intracaldera material, equivalent to 530 km3 (130 cu mi) of magma.

>>Modern Lake Taupō partly fills the caldera generated during this eruption. Tephra from the eruption covered much of the central North Island with ignimbrite up to 200 m (660 ft) deep.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#118
post #105

With volcanos, the more viscous the magma, the more energy gets stored before an eruption. Supervolcanos are the most viscous type, hence the massive explosion. Think boiling water vs thick oatmeal vs boiling a pressure cooker until it explodes, but obviously worse. So "relieve pressure" in this case isn't like a pressure release valve on a water heater. You'd need to either cool the mass, remove the overburden, or c…

I like that you felt you needed to point out that a supervolcano explosion would be worse than oatmeal on the wall.

Yea- the more pertinent take is that the magma involved "flows" more like room temp glass than liquid water.

It'd be like trying to suck a mix of layers of that boiling oatmeal and playdough through a straw.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#119
post #37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine it escaped as a gas.

It escapes . . . as a gas . . . in an already highly pressurized environment . . . that is already containing a large amount of high-pressure hydrogen sulfide that cannot escape as it is? I'm pressing X to doubt.

Big "if", but hypothetically, at least gas flows in a way that the pressure could be relieved.

The whole reason supervolcanoes are what they are is that the material can't sufficiently flow faster than pressure builds.

Converting that material to an escaping gas at scale would be an unbelievably successful technological achievement.

Re: Can you drill into a supervolcano to relieve pressure? (2016)

#120

With volcanos, the more viscous the magma, the more energy gets stored before an eruption. Supervolcanos are the most viscous type, hence the massive explosion. Think boiling water vs thick oatmeal vs boiling a pressure cooker until it explodes, but obviously worse. So "relieve pressure" in this case isn't like a pressure release valve on a water heater. You'd need to either cool the mass, remove the overburden, or c…

> The US nuclear test done in Mississippi resulted in vaporizing the rock and soil and creating a large underground void, for whatever that's worth as a sort of proof of concept. Where did the vaporized rock and soil go?

>Where did the vaporized rock and soil go?

"What are you, the rock police? I put'em up on my a**. How's that?"

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