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The genius of John von Neumann

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Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#111

Post by watson_truth »

huetius wrote: post #101
marcellus23 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you personally happen to know some people who are successful despite being "stupid" (whatever that means according to you), is not really any sort of convincing point. And at any rate, the fact that a "stupid" person _can_ be successful certainly says nothing about how likely to be successful any given "stupid" person is.

I invite you to consult your own experience. High IQ people are often more skilled than others in explaining away gulfs between their understanding and encounters with reality. For IQ believers, such people still get to be called intelligent. For me, it makes them stupid.

You're quibbling about the definitions. Sure, high IQ people can be irrational and believe stupid stuff. Doesn't change the fact that IQ is important for success in modern society.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#112

Post by watson_truth »

gremloni wrote: post #106
screye wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unfortunate reality is that group level differences in characteristics associated with intelligence are measurable. It is pretty much an open secret in genomics. Additionally, given how regression to the mean works, a small enough endogamous minority will display larger deviations from the mean (positive or negative) than larger ethnic groups that usually constitute the majority. I agree that it is a really trick…

The fundamental problem with the “open secret” is a lack of a definition of what intelligence is. Something that works very well in our current paradigm may not do so well in another. If a mental trait is more advantageous in another paradigm, that would be classified as intelligence.

So you believe all the evidence around the g-factor is being fabricated?

Lol people should really enable showdead on this website, the science denialism is incredible.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#113

Post by dilyevsky »

triclops200 wrote: post #10
jgmmo wrote: post #7

I have had this great book for 10+ years, and still find it fascinating it's called "Prisoner's Dilemma: John von Neumann, Game Theory, and the Puzzle of the Bomb". I try to re-read it on occasion. It's half John von Neumann biography and half subject matter history. Call him an unhinged lunatic if you want photochemsyn; but I consider him a super genius. Link: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29506.Prisoner_s_Dil…

He was a super genius. Just a super genius who repeatedly called for genocide and nuclear first strikes. He was removed from the target selection committee for the Japan bombings because he kept advocating for high civilian targets with no military value and even the generals at the table viewed him as crazy. The ability to be a genius and a lunatic aren't mutually exclusive and the recent efforts to build a hagiogra…

He was a living proof that general ai is extremely dangerous as he was basically Skynet from Terminator movies in human form.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#114

Post by ichydkrsrnae »

photochemsyn wrote: post #16
sugarpile wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how pushing for a strategy that, from a game theory point of view, was sound makes him a lunatic. Plenty of people don't view the preservation of life as the be all end all and if that strategy had been followed and it had led to a world where only the United States had ever been allowed to develop nuclear weapons I see a very easy argument for it being the more long-term humane option. Edit: who's more…

It's a lunatic position. Consider the die-hard environmental activist who decides the best way to save the planet is to create a collection of deadly infectious pathogens, distribute them to every major city on the planet, and so reduce the human population by 75%, creating a glorious utopia for everyone to enjoy. Several books and movies have employed this plot, 'Cobra Event' comes to mind. Consider the psychology o…

The Cobra Event was buried and lost by having a title not unlike 500 other novels by more recognizable authors like Ludlum, Clancy, etc. Too bad too, because it's a great read.

How long will that plot really be fiction?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cobra_Event

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#115

Post by elzbardico »

DantesKite wrote: post #19
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

An intellectual-yet-idiot who placed too much hope and emphasis on game theory, despite the fact that it only works when agents are perfectly rational.

Have you ever wondered if your opinion is derived from first facts or based on a biased selection of sources that you've been exposed to? Not that I am telling this is the case, but have you ever considered that? I am generally curious, because saying John Von Neumann is IYI is a very courageous proposition.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#116

Post by elzbardico »

systemvoltage wrote: post #15
photochemsyn wrote: post #5

You could write another article entitled 'the lunacy of John von Neumann' over his endless pushes for destroying every major city in the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, too. A brilliant scientist, yes, but also an unhinged lunatic. Not an unusual situation, see Cantor etc. What's curious is how many hagiographies have been written about this individual - some people seem bent on rehabilitating this figure by erasi…

I hate this. We are trying to look at the worst of someone that did so much for the world. People on HN are trying to cancel Feynman as well. I have nothing but feelings of disdain for you. Even if they did something wrong, I’d rather focus on their positive sides. Please stop this onslaught of taking down the history for some axe to grind.

One thing that I try to do as much as possible is try to just ignore this kind of people. They've got their agendas, and I am not going to give them the attention they want.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#117

Post by beerandt »

vishho wrote: post #83
gonehome wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the prisoner's dilemma isn't a core constraint that the prisoners can't collaborate? Therefore you can't cooperate for the best outcome and both are independently incentivized to defect. In global diplomacy the goal is to coordinate for the best outcome. So I'm not sure a strike first 'defection' is the rational move.

Game Theory eventually settled on Mutually Assured Destruction. MAD can be seen as the tit-for-tat strategy in an iterated PD with multiple level thinking (If we have crazy von Neumann, do they have similar consultants? Do they know that we think Neumann is a lunatic? etc.) and super rationality (we are all players on the same board, damaging other players reduces our own chances to grow, we should be competing again…

Also, for any of this to work, no matter the theory or rationale or lack thereof, the otherside has to believe that you're both capable and willing to execute any given plan.

Meaning that floating crazy-but-rationlized war strategies, especially sourced from individuals who are respected and known to be influential, can itself be seen as part of the overall strategy.

Regardless of whether said strategies are officially adopted or not. It's posturing.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#118

Post by watson_truth »

gremloni wrote: post #107
screye wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately again, IQ is highly predictive. It obviously clashes with the massive emphasis on merit, grit & educational attainment placed by western liberal ideology. It fundamentally shakes the very foundation of outcome based evaluation of one's protestant/puritanism, especially in American Academia. (the deeply rooted nature of protestantism in the pro-science / anti-religion/ Academic community in the US is lon…

It comes back to the idea that intelligence comes back to performing well in our current narrow paradigm with all its rules and constraints. It could be very differently defined for instance in a world where the fundamental rules are different.

Yes, IQ is important for tasks related to complex civilizations. There is a reason Africans don't have those.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#119

Post by dhanna »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #100
dhanna wrote: post #4

I don’t need another biography/blog post fawning about John von Neumann, I need this goddamn series reprinted https://www.amazon.com/John-Von-Neumann-Collected-Works/dp/0... .

What would one do with it?

Not sure, I’ll figure that out once I get my hands on it.

Re: The genius of John von Neumann

#120

Post by eyeundersand »

jandrese wrote: post #49
eyeundersand wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you're joking... (sorry, couldn't resist) I'm out of the loop on this one too. Anyone care to explain?

If you read his autobiography he includes a fair bit of Red Pill style advice to the reader. Stuff like how to neg women to get them to sleep with you. He also includes anecdotes about how he was the least sexist guy in the room on other occasions. This is the danger of filtering past culture through a modern lens.

Ha! I'm in the middle of reading it. was might be more suitable seeing as I haven't touched it in about two months now but that's how I like doing it (3-4 in parallel). Just went back to check, and found out I left it at Part 4, with his involvement in the military having recently started. Don't recall anything particularly improper as regards the allegations(facts?, I'm not sure) but it's probably coming up.

Thanks for letting me know!

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