Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#111

Post by KaiserPro » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #59

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it. Giving a special benefit that will for the most part only be exercised by women discourages hiring women. You can still think its worth it, but don't pretend like you're baffled by anyone who would object or question how this im…

So UK maternity leave is shared. Its a year with 6 months "pay"

How its taken is up to the parents. The people that I know who've taken it have split it fairly evenly. (I know I know sample size.)

I did not take any, as I was not eligible at the time.

As someone who does a lot of recruiting, I don't think "hmm I'm going to have to pay this woman for mat leave" because frankly that's bollocks, who knows who's going to be here for six months, 1 year or 8?

From a purely business point of view, the women that have come back from maternity are normally bargains. They don't ask for more pay, they are flexible and are loyal, assuming we have made the correct allowances for being parents.

also being a parent in tech allows people to deal much better with the toddler tantrums/playground fights that seem to be common in this industry.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#112

Post by maxehmookau » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #86

maxehmookau wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But obviously it doesn't make sense for many businesses, otherwise they would all be doing it. Or, despite the fact that they believe so deeply that time off to produce the next generation of workers and consumers is a net loss to their bottom line, they're actually wrong and are yet to discover this. Parental leave should be a universal benefit for workers, period. Employers should foot the bill.

>Employers should foot the bill. I think society should foot the bill for society-wide benefits. I do not see any reason to expect small businesses (or even large businesses) to have to worry about the costs of funding parental leave benefits, outside of having the requisite staffing.

Ok, sure. I’m on board with that. Except businesses will probably have to pay higher taxes to support such a scheme. Businesses are the wealth drivers of our economy (as we’re so often told). Money either comes from taxes on them, or on taxes on the people that they pay. It doesn’t really matter. It’s all the same money.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#113

Post by fileeditview » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #87

Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive and stop spending money on unnecessary things. You can switch to eating cheap food and minimize your expenses. If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible.

> Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive ..

What should e.g. waiters / waitresses do then? Drive to work for hours every day so they can serve coffee to those who can afford to live where they need to work?

You make it sound simple but it is not.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#114

Post by KaiserPro » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #100

lotsofpulp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This graph shows the gender pay gap trending down in the UK since they implemented parental leave: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... This graph shows women's employment rate trending up in the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

Policy changes don't exist in a vacuum. I'm not interested in studies that show something. I'm interested in a mental model that results in employers being indifferent to hiring men or women when statistically women are much more likely to take a considerable amount of paid time off with restrictions set on replacing them. The model could be that employers are altruistic. Or that employers are dumb and don't realize…

This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years.

The arguments for "not hiring women because they'll just go and get pregnant" have largely been settled in the UK.

shared parental leave is a thing, its just what happens. Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#115

Post by jseban » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #62

endisneigh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works in other countries by having higher tax rates, lower incomes, smaller populations and less wealth inequality.

>higher tax rates That's the secret sauce, and a smaller military >lower incomes That makes no sense, maybe don't sell your medicine for 10x more...but NO that would not be compatible with a pure capitalism >and smaller populations That's a NON argument

Lower incomes is a direct requirement of higher taxes.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#116

Post by charcircuit » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

comeonseriously wrote: post #98

charcircuit wrote: post #87

Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive and stop spending money on unnecessary things. You can switch to eating cheap food and minimize your expenses. If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible.

> Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive and stop spending money on unnecessary things. Because The Poors waste their money? > You can switch to eating cheap food and minimize your expenses. So, The Poors shouldn't care about nutrition? > If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible. This is so naive.

>Because The Poors waste their money?

Either that or they are not using their time well for making money.

>So, The Poors shouldn't care about nutrition?

cheap and nutritious don't have to be mutually exclusive

>This is so naive.

It means you are living a life you can't afford.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#117

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #112

lotsofpulp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Employers should foot the bill. I think society should foot the bill for society-wide benefits. I do not see any reason to expect small businesses (or even large businesses) to have to worry about the costs of funding parental leave benefits, outside of having the requisite staffing.

Ok, sure. I’m on board with that. Except businesses will probably have to pay higher taxes to support such a scheme. Businesses are the wealth drivers of our economy (as we’re so often told). Money either comes from taxes on them, or on taxes on the people that they pay. It doesn’t really matter. It’s all the same money.

>It’s all the same money.

Exactly, which is why tasking every business with calculating risks of pregnancies and funding for them is dumb. Just do it on a nation level, or at least state level.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#118

Post by KaiserPro » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #87

Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive and stop spending money on unnecessary things. You can switch to eating cheap food and minimize your expenses. If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible.

> If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible.

your grasp of statistics lets you down. US pay is distributed like this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/203183/percentage-distri...

Given that education requires spare income, and spare time, how are you supposed to gain qualifications/training to allow you to up your income?

Assuming that everyone was able to become qualified, given the saturation in the market place of cheap, new people, how will that glut of supply increase media wage?

If you cannot earn, how are you supposed to save for "financial responsibility"?

You have a workplace accident, not your fault. Now you have huge hospital debt. This is coupled by inflation on fuel and housing. Minimum wage doesn't rise. how are you supposed to earn more?

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#119

Post by temphnaccount » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #87

Maybe you should not live somewhere so expensive and stop spending money on unnecessary things. You can switch to eating cheap food and minimize your expenses. If you are just making ends meet you are not financially responsible.

Some comments on this thread are really something. I know my comment adds nothing here but honestly I don't have any words to argue with this. Just disappointed.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#120

Post by ajuc » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #68

speedgoose wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why US can't have better parental leave policies when Greece, France, or Mexico can?

> Nevertheless, the participation of Greek women in the labour market continues to be 8-10 percent below the average of E.U. countries Unemployment in Greece is nearly triple what it is in the US (14%). Policies don't exist in a vacuum. Everything has trade offs. Until you accept that you'll never have a productive honest conversation. [0] https://ideas.repec.org/p/wiw/wiwrsa/ersa06p257.html

According to [1] USA is 86th in the world according to unemployment. Most of the countries with lower unemployment than USA have paid paternity leave. Please stop cherry-picking, you're not fooling anyone. 120 counties in the world have paid maternity leave, often about a year or more of it. That includes countries with higher standards of living than USA.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemploym...