Goodbye, MIT • Hacker News Board

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#111

Post by anonair » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #3

I feel genuinely conflicted about these topics. Part of me says “I agree with the letter authors completely. People should experience equal opportunity, equal Justice, and equal responsibility.” Another part of me says “that’s literally impossible (or incompatible) with different families raising their children with different circumstances.” Overall, I lean pretty strongly towards individual families raising their ch…

yes, but the system, where we tend to equalize the outcomes is easier to abuse.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#112

Post by roenxi » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #92

roenxi wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't clear that the church actually objected that much, for all their statement to the contrary. It isn't like they defrocked him or anything. It is more likely that MIT asked for him to be sacked and they took a decision not to fight over it because it wouldn't be helpful. What the chaplain was trying to do here was entirely in line with how he was meant to act. I wasn't blaming anyone but it does seem quite lik…

> It isn’t clear that the church actually objected that much, for all their statement to the contrary. I disagree. Not only is it clear that they objected to his message, its clear from the Cardinal Archbishop’s own public message on the same issue two days before Moloney’s why they did. > It isn’t like they defrocked him or anything. Er, yeah, I mean no matter the severity of the disagreement, its not even the class…

Someone thinks that this letter - which I cheerfully point out is not only race-neutral but preaching tolerance and peace - is threatening enough that they have to disassociate with the priest.

He then disassociates from MIT. He is still associated with the Catholic Church. This suggests that the outrage is emanating from MIT, rather than the Church.

> Er, yeah, I mean no matter the severity of the disagreement, its not even the class of issue for which that is appropriate.

It isn't appropriate to fire him full stop, appropriateness isn't at play here. The problem is that it has been a number of months, the people involved were convicted and there is still no evidence that the Floyd case was racially motivated. And that is politically inconvenient for a vocal group of people. People who, coincidentally, are very much associated with MIT students and leadership.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#113

Post by theHIDninja » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

I am convinced that the relationship between American universities and its public are entirely untenable. There is no reason to give them any money as their goals are not to educate people. I have no sympathy for anybody that goes to a university and accrues a massive amount of debt anymore. The general assumption now is that people who went to these toxic places did so fully knowing that they will be lied to about economic prospects and brainwashed into believing a certain brand of racist wokeism.

I do not offer any solutions to this. The only solution I can see involves some form of violent and total destruction of these institutions. It would also require a building of new that absolutely forbid all parties involved with the old institions from even contacting the people involved with the new ones. I do not know what this will entail. There is no means of peaceful transfer of power away from these virtue signalling sycophants and toxic soulless wretches.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#114

Post by mrjangles » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

romwell wrote: post #91

mrjangles wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the authors opinion, I actually agree with you too, and quite like how succinctly you pointed out their hypocrisy. I personally didn't see it immediately. Regardless, allow me to answer your question to perhaps give you a different perspective on the matter. >Who are the people these two chaps see as being hurt by MIT's so-called "wokeness"? I.e., whom are they trying to help with their withdrawal…

Thanks! The hypocrisy is what stands out to me; other than that — I'm not donating any money to MIT either. The real issue here is where the educational institutions get their money from, and how they spend the money they get. Undergraduate admission systems are so deeply flawed that changing admission criteria does nothing, I feel: there's always a way to fine-tune them to get or exclude any demographic. I feel like…

I agree with your identification of the problems, but not your solutions. You seem to point out again and again the problems with public school education. I know a few highly educated people in your position too who are trying to teach without being hampered from all sides by the government and the unions.

I just find it weird that despite all that you think more government, more regulation, is going to fix it. Private schools do not have any of these problems. Why not?

The solutions are simple and obvious. School choice. Let kids go to whatever school they want. Give monetary incentives to schools that attract more kids. Let the schools teach whatever and however they want, but with nation wide testing. The problem will fix itself.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#115

Post by romwell » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #114

romwell wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! The hypocrisy is what stands out to me; other than that — I'm not donating any money to MIT either. The real issue here is where the educational institutions get their money from, and how they spend the money they get. Undergraduate admission systems are so deeply flawed that changing admission criteria does nothing, I feel: there's always a way to fine-tune them to get or exclude any demographic. I feel like…

I agree with your identification of the problems, but not your solutions. You seem to point out again and again the problems with public school education. I know a few highly educated people in your position too who are trying to teach without being hampered from all sides by the government and the unions. I just find it weird that despite all that you think more government, more regulation, is going to fix it. Priva…

If you are talking about colleges: it's not "regulations" that are the problem, it's that in a system where the students have to count every penny, there's no room for a diverse curriculum.

I haven't been hampered by either government or unions, and the situation is absolutely identical in private colleges.

When it comes to colleges, there is no school choice without free schools. People go where they can afford to go.

Having educational standards in place means more room for non-standard material.

Now, colleges vs. K12 have an entirely different set of problems.

If by "school choice" you mean not forcing K12 kids to be attached to a school district, sure (I went to a "magnet" school, which wasn't tied to home address).

But not everyone can go to school that's far away for whatever reasons. And having college-style admission systems in schools will lead to the same problems.

On top of that, little children shouldn't be expected to make these kind of choices, so basically we are screwing over kids whose parents aren't parenting them well. And since we want all kids to be in school, what's the "default" option if they don't make a choice?

Nationwide testing sounds an awful lot like regulation:D

Essentially, common core is doing just that: sets guidelines, while leaving a lot of freedom to the teachers. You can see how much of an uphill battle it is.

And as for "private schools don't have problems" — yeah, no. They absolutely do. And the best schools in NYC are all public (Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech, Bronx Science, etc.

And there's the problem of finding and retaining qualified teachers while paying them reasonable wages.

But I digress. What I can assure you of is that's there's no one single thing that will fix it. Many things need to change, and be done by many people.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#116

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Re: Goodbye, MIT

#117

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Re: Goodbye, MIT

#118

Post by brodouevencode » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

acomjean wrote: post #78

When I was in college Louis Farrakhan [1] came to speak. There was a great debate if he should come (state school/funds and a pretty high speaking fee.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Farrakhan He spoke, huge protest outside (I covered the protests for the college paper) As a suburban white kid i learned a lot about things I wasn’t exposed to. I listened to a recording of him speaking a while I processes the p…

It certainly depends on the university/school. I saw the writing on the wall in 2010 and left a nine year career in the university behind. The focus was to "get asses in seats" (the president's words, not mine). Then on top of that certain segments of the faculty had become intolerant of certain student groups and would frequently punish students for their world views, even those that are now classified in higher intersectional categories. Yes this is all anecdotal, but we're seeing it play out with our own eyes in public now. I give to my alma mater but less so than to charities and institutions of which have missions that are clearly and plainly defined. I don't think the entire university model is corrupt or broken but we have to be careful.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#119

Post by motioncuty » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

ergot_vacation wrote: post #50

How long can a country endure if it continues to cripple learning, muzzle truth and persecute some of its most talented and capable individuals in the name of childish, incoherent ideology? Not long. The stage of history doesn't care how many followers you have on Twitter, or how many people's lives you can destroy in the name of your religion masquerading as science. In the coming years, the US MUST LEAD. It must sh…

"How long can a country endure if it continues to cripple learning, muzzle truth and persecute some of its most talented and capable individuals in the name of childish, incoherent ideology? Not long"

Are you talking about modern "wokeness" or are you talking about the while history of the United States as a primarily Christian state? Because I still feel more crippled, muzzled, and persecuted by us Christian morality/ideology than any recent up surgance in "wokeness".

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#120

Post by RattleyCooper » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 12:42 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #3

I feel genuinely conflicted about these topics. Part of me says “I agree with the letter authors completely. People should experience equal opportunity, equal Justice, and equal responsibility.” Another part of me says “that’s literally impossible (or incompatible) with different families raising their children with different circumstances.” Overall, I lean pretty strongly towards individual families raising their ch…

>If it turns out that one of those is more valuable, well the different kids didn’t have equal opportunities. Other kids worried about nutrition, whether one parent would beat the other, or grow up with a parent in jail. Clearly not equal opportunity.

You confuse equal opportunity with equal circumstances. All we can do is give people equal opportunity under law, so that nobody is restricted from opportunity from a legal perspective. Trying to solve the problem of equal circumstances will always result in the violation of human rights. We should do our best to give people the tools and education they need to succeed so that these other factors do not influence their life as much, and they can overcome the obstacles that they've been presented with.