New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray • Hacker News Board

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#111

Post by terafo » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #79

> The new approach can achieve write speeds of 1,000,000 voxels per second, the equivalent of 230 kilobytes of data per second > 500 TB of data on a small disc So, it would take 70 years to fill it. By the time you can fill it we will have RAM with higher density :)

> `The researchers say that with improvements to the writing techniques, particularly by taking advantage of parallelism, they can design a system that can fill that same 500 TB in a mere 60 days.`

It's possible to get it up to 100 megs per second, which is write speed of a good hard drive. And I suspect it could be scaled up even more. Progress in this field is quite good, 8 years ago they put 300kb on it, now it's 5gb.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#112

Post by panda-giddiness » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #100

MAGZine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Dimension in the data sense of the word, not Dimension in the spatial sense of the word. Multi-dimension data is a thing, and it goes a lot higher than 4, 5, or 7.

Isn't this normally referred to as "degrees of freedom" rather than dimensions?

No, these are separate concepts. As an example: a simple linear regression through 7 data points has 2 dimensions (x and y) but 5 degrees of freedom (number of data points - number of estimated parameters).

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#113

Post by zardo » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #95

Rygian wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which reduces to one single dimension anyway, on a storage medium: my bytes are stored from offset 0 to offset N.

That's a bit reductive.

Maybe for some. For most uses though, people just want to write data to and read it from the storage media. They don't want to think about the coordinates their data was written to on the DVD.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#114

Post by terafo » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

jijji wrote: post #110

The thpical lifetime of a CD or DVD or BlueRay is about 3-5 years depending on the handling by the user. I'd like to see them outline the claim that this media can last "billions" of years. It sounds highly suspect, as does all the other claims in the article.

It is very durable. It withstood 1000 degree heat for 2 hours in referenced paper, there are no moving parts on the storage itself, it doesn't require additional energy to sustain records, records themselves don't deteriorate over time, and glass by nature is quite resistant to mechanical damage(outer few mm obviously shouldn't be used). If stored correctly, I see no reason for it not lasting a few million years.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#115

Post by iypx » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #84

mixmastamyk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optical discs aren't torn apart when the reader malfunctions?

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/my-cd-shattered-insi... I've had a CD-ROM back in the day shatter on me like this. I'm pretty sure its a common enough story that everyone 'knows' it could happen... but was rare enough that not everyone personally came across it... but I never got to the bottom of it (why it happened, or what conditions led to it). It only ever happened to me once after all. It sounds like x56…

I remember my x52 drive would make at least 2 or 3 "test" spins every time I'd insert a disk, just to see how fast it can spin it. It felt like an airplane taking off every time I'd put a new scratch-less disk.

I had one year warranty on that drive. This "feature" stopped working exactly one week after my warranty expired, it would just go full speed regardless of how beaten the disks were.

That's how I got two of my heavily scratched disks shatter.

A few more weeks down the road, the function that's supposed to slow down a disk before a full stop, also stopped working... so now even if a disk was spinning at x52 inside and you'd press the eject button, it would instantly stop the motor and eject it!

That's when I finally threw it away and got myself a "normal" x46 or x44 (don't remember) drive...

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#116

Post by nomel » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

TacticalCoder wrote: post #28

mattowen_uk wrote: post #2

This is all well-and-good, but how do we read all that data in 500 years time, or even 20 years time? People were busily archiving data to CDs and DVDs two decades ago, thinking 'yeah this digital storage media will last for centuries!'... Loads of bit-rot combined with complete lack of DVD drives still in common [computer] usage, has totally shown that the more complex the storage media the shorter it's useful lifet…

> This is all well-and-good, but how do we read all that data in 500 years time, or even 20 years time? I know it won't last due to bit-rot but all my CDs burned in the nineties are still readable. > Loads of bit-rot combined with complete lack of DVD drives still in common [computer] usage... They are still very common: both in desktop and as USB-connected readers/burners. You can find countless models on Amazon. I…

> I know it won't last due to bit-rot but all my CDs burned in the nineties are still readable.

Were these the more expensive archival disks? I lost all ~50 of my old CDs and DVDs to rot, within 10 years. They were middle range Memorex.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#117

Post by nomel » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #41

mattowen_uk wrote: post #2

This is all well-and-good, but how do we read all that data in 500 years time, or even 20 years time? People were busily archiving data to CDs and DVDs two decades ago, thinking 'yeah this digital storage media will last for centuries!'... Loads of bit-rot combined with complete lack of DVD drives still in common [computer] usage, has totally shown that the more complex the storage media the shorter it's useful lifet…

Some guys I know propose a storage on 35mm-film solution that looks pretty foolproof for a couple of centuries at least. https://digifilm-corp.com/preserve-your-works-for-eternity To read back the data, you need something to digitize the film (a flatbed scanner would work, I've tried, or probably even a smartphone with a a DIY magnifier), then something to decode the data (the necessary source code is provided in cle…

I'm having trouble finding the data density. How many lbs of film/GB?

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#118

Post by 1_player » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 12:47 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #109

gjm11 wrote: post #10

In case anyone is wondering what they mean by "5D": they mean it's a 3D array of marks, each of which has both size and orientation. The 3D array is three 2D layers. According to this definition, a DVD or Blu-Ray disc is "4D" because it can have multiple layers each of which stores 1-dimensional data (pit versus no pit). And a book is at least "7D" because it contains a 3D arrangement of marks, and marks can vary in…

> But there's no need for this "five-dimensional" bullshit. Sure there is. It's going to sell great with idiots. I still remember morons super hyped about Opteron trying to claim it was an optical CPU.

I don't know, in my book the idiots are the big brains that thought that calling it 5D would be a smashing idea. Can't wait for the next version being sold as 6D+

It's probably the same type of people that decide the USB technology names (SuperSpeed, UltraSpeed, HumoungousSpeed) that are hard to follow and understand even for hardcore nerds like us.

Marketing would be more appreciated if it didn't take laymen for morons, as you call them.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#119

Post by bscphil » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #62

mixmastamyk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I burn 100GB backups via blu-ray. One or two is enough for my non-movie files. They started stagnating a few years ago when streaming ascended however. Shame as I'd like higher capacity as well. Cheap USB flash drives are already moving into this space. I just got a compact 256GB one for $35 or so, just a matter of time. SD cards would probably be more convenient, but they aren't sadly aren't read in devices like ste…

That much music (even at lossless compression that’s a lifetime of nonstop music) is completely impractical to navigate using a common stereo UI

Assuming you're referring to the parent comment's 100GB drive (or even the 256 GB one) that's really not true. A quick `du -sh` tells me I have right at 100 GB of FLAC music, and I've easily listened to every single track. There are, in fact, only 3770 tracks. At an average of 4.5 minutes a song (guessing), that's only around 11.8 days of music. About 8 hours a day of music for a month!

Or to calculate it another way, a typical FLAC stereo track might run about 800 kbps or 100 kB/s. 100 GB will let you store 11.6 days of music at that bitrate, which is just about the same total I got for my collection above.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#120

Post by guerrilla » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 1:23 AM UTC

1_player wrote: post #118

guerrilla wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there's no need for this "five-dimensional" bullshit. Sure there is. It's going to sell great with idiots. I still remember morons super hyped about Opteron trying to claim it was an optical CPU.

I don't know, in my book the idiots are the big brains that thought that calling it 5D would be a smashing idea. Can't wait for the next version being sold as 6D+ It's probably the same type of people that decide the USB technology names (SuperSpeed, UltraSpeed, HumoungousSpeed) that are hard to follow and understand even for hardcore nerds like us. Marketing would be more appreciated if it didn't take laymen for mor…

Yes, the same ones that keep bumping version numbers absurdly. They do it because it works. It doesn't assume all laymen are morons; the people that know it's value will buy it anyway.