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Programmers’ emotions

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Re: Programmers’ emotions

#111

Post by Karrot_Kream »

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #108
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The last time I remember seeing someone say "RTFM" is probably something like 2006? in the freenode bash IRC room. Where are you frequenting that you see such things? Just a cursory search, nothing specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28831243 https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_insane_part_one_endless_er... https://lobste.rs/s/yjvmlh/go_ing_in…

I see. When I read your statement, I interpreted it as statement about a majority of devs in such communities. I actually came into the haskell community expecting MORE of such behavior, becuase I think common wisdom is that Haskell is full of gatekeeprs. I've been quite surprised by how little of it there actually are. I'm not sure I totally grok your point re: golang. Just go read Rob pike's statement. That doesn't…

> I see. When I read your statement, I interpreted it as statement about a majority of devs in such communities.

> I actually came into the haskell community expecting MORE of such behavior, becuase I think common wisdom is that Haskell is full of gatekeeprs. I've been quite surprised by how little of it there actually are.

Yeah I don't mean to imply that this is something specific to the Haskell or PL community. More that there is a strain of vocal gatekeeping in the field of software dev as a whole, and it finds most purchase in niche communities like PL enthusiasts or simplicity enthusiasts, probably often because small communities don't always have the time/manpower to create consistent messaging and guidelines.

> I'm not sure I totally grok your point re: golang. Just go read Rob pike's statement. That doesn't mean much about golang per se; he may have been attempting to make something suitable primarily for beginners, and hit upon some kind of impossibly powerful design (i'm thinking like scheme or something). But I hear about how bad golang code has to be, and well it makes me very sad.

I just linked those posts from a thread I found, it's not really a point I'm trying to make myself, though hating on Go is a common sport for folks who write in niche languages. (So P(niche language writer | hater) is high, not that P(hater | niche language writer) is high.)

> Of course, golang does solve actual very real problems, and failing to acknowledge this is holding back the industry 100%. It also meets people where they are, not where the language author is, which is of course something we really need to come to terms with as a group of people who want to push the industry forward.

Right and that's all I mean. I firmly believe that choosing a PL is often a complicated decision and is often driven more by the problem domain than anything else. But the toxic gatekeeping around the dialogue ends up making everyone defensive and has people take increasingly intransigent positions, which leads to silly divides instead of folks working together to advance SOTA.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#112

Post by aunty_helen »

rockmeamedee wrote: post #82

The number one thing that got me to senior engineer, and will get me to staff as I improve (though staff has more of a relationship management component) is emotional management. Staying in a long debugging session without ragequitting and getting to the fix. Pushing through when I feel really dumb for not knowing how a react hook works or how to test a particular feature. Not getting bored (or recognising it and pus…

> The number one thing that got me to senior engineer, and will get me to staff as I improve (though staff has more of a relationship management component)

I love the little rat race we’ve created for ourselves. When did staff engineer become a thing? I’ve just noticed it but feel like it’s probably been around for a few years.

Next question when you get to staff engineer what next? Do you become a lead engineer or staff engineer II?

Jokes aside

> Not getting angry when the codebase is not architected well or is hard to understand.

This is the most important job hack for a software engineer of any artificial title. Even more important when your title starts with a C.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#113

Post by unphased »

csours wrote: post #6

I've been thinking about this A LOT over the last year. Knowledge work is Emotional work. Software developers make software for PEOPLE. Making things for people requires empathy to be successful or else a whole lot of luck. Having empathy means putting myself out there. It means asking questions that sound ignorant. It means going from feeling like I had a great idea to seeing all the flaws and shortcomings of that i…

And to add on to that, you're lucky if your computer just tells you no. Often you get a yes and something blows up much later with precious little for you to follow and you've got to put your Sherlock hat on.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#114

Post by unphased »

voidfunc wrote: post #95

I stopped feeling shame for my code after a couple years in business. Every line out there is someone’s little piece of shit. We are just little shit machines producing ever more shit. Sometimes we even use shit to patch up the gaps in existing shit. We are also known to get bold sometimes and start fresh shit piles usually because we have realized flashier shit gets you promoted. All code is shit.

This explains well why it's so satisfying to delete code.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#116

Post by askonomm »

8b16380d wrote: post #103
LouisSayers wrote: post #101

I'm honestly not sure how you can make it past say 10 years in the industry without having the mental skills of a Buddhist Monk. Coding isn't too bad for the most part, but on top of that it's like you have to manage the product owners / managers, coach your team mates, and put up with company politic dribble. While you're doing all that people are constantly changing their minds, making you task switch to jump on fi…

The grass always seems greener. Dev jobs are objectively very comfortable. Problems exist in all industries/occupations, who's to say they aren't equally frustrating.

This. I have also felt very burned out and frustrated with our industry, but with a little therapy I've found that most of my unhappiness comes from within, and once resolving those issues I've realized that being a developer is one of the most comfortable, privileged position one can be in. I can literally change a job in a matter of weeks, I have ridiculous salary, and most of my job I actually even love! Not so much the case with a ton of other jobs.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#117

Post by zepto »

8b16380d wrote: post #103
LouisSayers wrote: post #101

I'm honestly not sure how you can make it past say 10 years in the industry without having the mental skills of a Buddhist Monk. Coding isn't too bad for the most part, but on top of that it's like you have to manage the product owners / managers, coach your team mates, and put up with company politic dribble. While you're doing all that people are constantly changing their minds, making you task switch to jump on fi…

The grass always seems greener. Dev jobs are objectively very comfortable. Problems exist in all industries/occupations, who's to say they aren't equally frustrating.

> Dev jobs are objectively very comfortable.

Who’s to say dev jobs are objectively very comfortable?

> Problems exist in all industries/occupations, who's to say they aren't equally frustrating.

The claim that the problems that exist in all industries are equally frustrating, is obviously absurd.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#118

Post by 99_00 »

LouisSayers wrote: post #101

I'm honestly not sure how you can make it past say 10 years in the industry without having the mental skills of a Buddhist Monk. Coding isn't too bad for the most part, but on top of that it's like you have to manage the product owners / managers, coach your team mates, and put up with company politic dribble. While you're doing all that people are constantly changing their minds, making you task switch to jump on fi…

See a therapist. Get in touch with your values. They won't tell you what to do but will help you understand what you want.

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#119

Post by a_e_k »

meken wrote: post #46
devnull3 wrote: post #16

Imposter Syndrome: Not an emotion per se.

It’s a belief. That everyone else is smarter than you. Opposite of dunning-kruger, where you think you’re smarter than everyone else.

Not an opposite. Dunning-Kruger works both ways:

> The Dunning–Kruger effect is a hypothetical cognitive bias stating that people with low ability at a task overestimate their own ability, and that people with high ability at a task underestimate their own ability.

(From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect, emphasis mine)

Re: Programmers’ emotions

#120

Post by ravenstine »

sarsway wrote: post #41

Pure dread, when you have signed up for a new gig and open an existing code base for the first time. Starring at hundreds of unknown files and folder with no idea what anything is and how it all works. No going back, you're a new maintainer, so better get to it. Usually after a few days you start getting a grasp, and it's not so bad though :)

A few days is exceptional. On average it takes me 3 months to a year to get to a point where I even kinda sorta feel comfortable in a codebase. There have been exceptions, but normally I find they're just written very expediently.
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