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Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

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Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#111

Post by nickff »

lowkey_ wrote: post #94
nickff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's ridiculous and a little bit ironic that something supposedly to bring good fortune will result in wide scale killing of animals, living earthlings." How is this ironic? Most cultures have prized animal products throughout recorded history, and many have practiced sacrifices, which is literally the killing of the being.

Not the parent, but the irony is that to bring good fortune, you bring incredible misfortune (extinction, even) upon other living things.

It seems like the comment I responded to was referring to something like an 'incongruity', and saying it was '[situational] irony', but it doesn't really satisfy the definition of situational irony (from wikipedia):

>"Situational irony: The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect."

In this specific case, the intention of extracting animal products caused the animals to be killed, which is not contrary to the expected effect (unfortunate as it may be).

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#113

Post by kadoban »

ceejayoz wrote: post #33
croes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the probability to get killed for the tusks is higher than get killed by predators then it's an advantage.

There are short-term and long-term advantages and disadvantages, though. From the article, it sounds like this may have protected them from human predation, but there may be significant long-term negative impacts on the species due to the lack of viable male offspring. Survive more easily for a couple generations, but go extinct as an all-female species after a couple more...

What do the males die of exactly? Not clear to me.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#114

Post by cromka »

ehsankia wrote: post #86
csours wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is an umbrella term, but in the most general form, evolution means a change in genetics in a population over time. So yes, the genetic 'option' was there before, but it is advantageous now.

Not only is it more advantageous, it actually was force selected for (IIRC, poached elephants are often left for dead). So this is closer to selective breeding/artificial selection more so than natural selection.

That's precisely what the article linked points out.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#115

Post by netcan »

rustyminnow wrote: post #77
VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why genetic diversity is a good thing.

Hmm in the context of the article, I'm not so sure it's a good thing. Later on they mention that if this genetic trait gets passed on to males, they die. So along with hunting, males are doubly at risk. It may be advantageous for the survival of an individual to be born without tusks, but it doesn't sound too good for the survival of the species.

The trait may or may not be advantageous. Diversity is. In this case the selective pressure is poaching, but selective pressures are constant. Diversity is a bank of genetics that the population can draw from to adapt and survive.

Traits that are rare, are often rare because of shortcomings. But if environmental changes make that tradeoff worthwhile, it can be made. Meanwhile, evolution doesn't stop. Once the trait/gene is common there is positive selective pressure on complementary genes. Over time, these may mitigate or compensate for the negative traits that have acquired.

Of course, on the timescales that humans tend to selectively pressure species, there isn't time for all this elegance to emerge, usually.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#116

Post by cromka »

gpt5 wrote: post #2

While sad as a whole, the responsiveness of evolution is beautiful in this case. It also demonstrates that human efforts to stop poaching have not been successful (otherwise this evolution wouldn’t happen), but luckily, nature responds.

I am not sure you read the article, because the number of large-scale side effects this single evolutionary treat evokes is in rather starting contrast with your "the responsiveness of evolution is beautiful in this case."

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#117

Post by BurningFrog »

estaseuropano wrote: post #16
tombert wrote: post #8

Honest question from someone who knows virtually nothing about chemistry or material science: is there a difference in quality between synthetic and natural ivory? If not, why is poaching even still a viable market?

Superstition. Elephants and tigers are not hunted for inherent qualities of their bodies, but for the belief that consumption of their parts in various ways helps health/virility/...

Has Viagra not reached China yet?

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#118

Post by qorrect »

klodolph wrote: post #105
gowld wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution has two main components. The random variation was already there. The natural selection is doing its part now.

This is selective breeding / artificial selection, not natural selection.

... Evolution has three main components

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#119

Post by Spivak »

Hamuko wrote: post #101
gowld wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution has two main components. The random variation was already there. The natural selection is doing its part now.

A man with a gun doesn't sound like "natural selection".

Humans are animals and predators like any other in this situation.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#120

Post by [deleted] »

vmception wrote: post #61
geoffmanning wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite sure what you're getting at. The definitions of those words can't simply be categorized as good or bad. Beautiful and lucky do, however, somewhat infer a positive outcome in the context they were used. Incredible infers neither positive nor negative. It means that it's simply extraordinary that such a thing could occur, outside the bounds of previous beliefs.

I personally find the natural selection process to be beautiful to witness, the adaptive pressures to be incredible, and the cause to be tragic Not mutually exclusive

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