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A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

economist.com

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Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#111

Post by unreal37 »

jeffbee wrote: post #92
lowkey_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Chesa Boudin, SF's DA, won't prosecute those misdemeanors (and often won't even prosecute felonies). > “We will not prosecute cases involving quality-of-life crimes,” the DA, Chesa Boudin, said in an interview while he was campaigning for office. “Crimes such as public camping, offering or soliciting sex, public urination, blocking a sidewalk, etc., should not and will not be prosecuted.” Despi…

Please indicate on the crime rate graph the point at which Chesa Boudin was elected. https://ibb.co/64jbBZ2

Again, if you're not even arresting people for minor things like breaking windows, you're not going to see it on a "crime rate graph".

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#112

Post by paisawalla »

baby wrote: post #103
paisawalla wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unironically yes.

Why? How can we improve as a society if we move what we don't like out of sight? I was particularly shocked when I came to the US by the sheer amount of poverty, disparity, etc. But I recently realized that the situation might not be that much better in Europe, it's just that poverty and disparity is usually moved to the suburbs and less visible.

What is the premise of this response? That unless we finally and completely solve the problems of society, nobody must be allowed to have streets free of needles and feces, lest they forget that addicts exist?

I'm sorry, I don't think it's immoral for me to want to live in a neighborhood where all my neighbors are housed, and keep their feces and drug abuse indoors.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#113

Post by samschooler »

no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#114

Post by adt2bt »

m0zg wrote: post #93

Same exact thing is happening in Seattle as we speak. They are buying hotels and converting them to permanent housing and, get this, do not require that you don't take drugs or look for a job if you live there. How the fuck are people supposed to "exit homelessness" if they're addicted and jobless? The answer is, they don't expect them to _ever_ exit it. I went to a city council meeting and asked actually. They did n…

So what’s your proposal?

Generally the #1 problem faced by homeless people is a lack of housing. Issues 2-10 will require support and help as well if we care about rehabilitation and reentry into society. Even if flawed, giving these people homes in converted hotels is likely better for them and for us than not doing that. So what else shall you have us do? Less, hoping we can ‘fix’ them with some good old fashioned tough love? (Hard to argue plenty of places haven’t done that to…basically no effect) Or, more, with learning and fixing mistakes along the way?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#115

Post by anonymoushn »

jeffbee wrote: post #92
lowkey_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Chesa Boudin, SF's DA, won't prosecute those misdemeanors (and often won't even prosecute felonies). > “We will not prosecute cases involving quality-of-life crimes,” the DA, Chesa Boudin, said in an interview while he was campaigning for office. “Crimes such as public camping, offering or soliciting sex, public urination, blocking a sidewalk, etc., should not and will not be prosecuted.” Despi…

Please indicate on the crime rate graph the point at which Chesa Boudin was elected. https://ibb.co/64jbBZ2

Why would you call the police to report a crime that they have a policy of taking no action on?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#116

Post by exsf0859 »

JamesVI wrote: post #59
richiezc wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in SF and while I don't spent a lot of time in Atherton, but homeless is most definitely visible even in the wealthy enclaves. Even before covid there was a small but visible homeless population in downtown Palo Alto (univ ave) and more recently there are tents on the sidewalk in Cupertino just down the street from Apple's spaceship campus. I think it must have become less acceptable to "move them along" durin…

Correct. Atherton isn't a great example. There's literally no downtown, so any homeless people would have to set up camp right outside some (very rich) person's (giant) single family home on a street with no sidewalk. Even in less affluent parts of the Bay Area unhoused people typically cluster in business or industrial districts rather than residential neighborhoods filled with single family homes. You see unhoused…

South Bay homelessness has adapted to car culture. A lot of South Bay homeless live in cars or campers permanently parked on city streets adjacent to parks, school fields, and/or business parks. I think most South Bay cities have a "you have to move a vehicle that's parked on the street every 3 days" law intended to discourage this, but it doesn't seem to be enforced.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#117

Post by baby »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #109
baby wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I listened to part of the podcast and if I remember correctly his proposed solution is to offer treatment and housing, but it you don’t follow that road: prison. No idea if that’s a good idea, but living in SF I can definitely say that whatever the city, or even the US as a country, has been doing until now has been useless. Disclaimer: I used to live in Chicago, and while not as bad as sf, the homeless situation was…

I do some work with the homeless in chicago, and the people you see living on the street are, by and large, not drug addicts. In Chicago, drug addicts are transient-homeless. They're in and out of shelters as they get evicted or kicked out of a place, but they find somewhere new (indoors) to live. Some may be periodic homeless. The chronic homeless in Chicago are usually physically and mentally disabled, and while th…

True! Not the same homeless population. Chicago homeless begs aggressively, the one in SF are just zombies.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#118

Post by paisawalla »

mrobot wrote: post #81
paisawalla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious solutions like "just give them houses" are discussed in the book, and previous attempts are evaluated. As you might expect, stuffing severely ill people into apartments without addressing the illness results in poor outcomes.

And you can't just diagnose them then go visit them? Help them with meds etc?

I'd encourage you to develop some first-hand experience working with this population of resistant addicts.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#119

Post by StanislavPetrov »

samschooler wrote: post #113
no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

>He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem.

If you want to find out what a situation is like, why would asking someone about it be more informative than actually going there and witnessing it yourself? The self proclaimed "experts" are the ones responsible for the policies that have turned San Fransisco into what it is today.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#120

Post by kcplate »

mrandish wrote: post #13
bryan0 wrote: post #7

Since I moved out of SF I’ve wondered if there will ever be some public epiphany that with their well-intentioned policies they’ve reinforced what they most wanted to destroy: a society of the haves and have-nots.

> with their well-intentioned policies they’ve reinforced what they most wanted to destroy: a society of the haves and have-nots. As a newly-former SF resident and worker, what I witnessed over the past decade confirms your sad summary. The unintended consequences of misguided yet well-intentioned political policies.

The problem is people are measuring policy success by how well intentioned it was rather than it’s results. Then, to further pile on to the disaster, political correctness discourages people from looking critically at the effects.
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