Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen • Hacker News Board

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#111

Post by malermeister » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #110

malermeister wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you suggest then? We do nothing and slowly walk towards our demise?

Probably this, yet. When the problem is real, people will find real solutions. Or not, but it's not happening now anyway. Are you driving less? Have you stopped eating beef?

When the problem is "real", it will be too late for solutions. We need to do something right now. Besides, I'd argue the problem is starting to be "real" right now. California, Australia, Siberia and Greece were on fire this year, Germany had historic floods and the East Coast keeps getting devastated by hurricanes.

I also disagree with the tactic of shifting responsibility to the individual to avoid doing anything where it actually matters. My individual contributions to climate change are negligible, this is a collective issue. We need to get industry and corporations in check and the only way we can do that is with heavy regulation.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#112

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #106

mikewarot wrote: post #95

How can they capture 92% of the CO2 generated by burning coal for less energy created by burning it, creating steam, running the steam through a turbine which then runs a generator, through a switching yard, and out to the world? The Carnot limit is far less than half, and yet this can get most of the Carbon back, with a balance of almost half of the energy? I did the math on this in the thread about this last week,…

The carbon output isn't pure carbon, but carbon oxides. Some of the oxygen is stripped from CO2 and the result is carbon-oxygen solids which are apparently industrially useful.

The problem is that if you turn around and use those carbon materials in industry, then you really haven’t captured the carbon at all. All that would accomplish is playing an emissions shell game, allowing fossil fuel consumers to shift the emissions to someone else.

For carbon capture to be useful from a climate perspective, we have to actually lock away the consumed carbon somewhere where it can’t enter the fast carbon cycle.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#113

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #112

colechristensen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The carbon output isn't pure carbon, but carbon oxides. Some of the oxygen is stripped from CO2 and the result is carbon-oxygen solids which are apparently industrially useful.

The problem is that if you turn around and use those carbon materials in industry, then you really haven’t captured the carbon at all. All that would accomplish is playing an emissions shell game, allowing fossil fuel consumers to shift the emissions to someone else. For carbon capture to be useful from a climate perspective, we have to actually lock away the consumed carbon somewhere where it can’t enter the fast ca…

Depends on what you do with the thing when you're done with it. Dumping it in a landfill after a decade would indeed by carbon capture.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#114

Post by sacred_numbers » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

credit_guy wrote: post #90

nkingsy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article clearly states a claimed 92% efficiency.

Good point. But there are two problems with that claim. One is about an order a magnitude, the other about a sign. The first one: if you burn 1kg of pure Carbon, you get 3.67 kg of CO2 and 32.8 MegaJoules [1], which is the same as 32800 kJ or, 32800/3600 kWh. That's 9.11 kWh for each 3.67 kg of CO2, or 2.4848 kWh/kg. That's quite close to 2500 kWh/ton. They are claiming it takes them 230 kWh/ton to reverse this react…

Maybe the researchers meant 230 Kwh above the reaction energy of pure carbon and oxygen. That makes the math check out, since 2,485/(2485+230)=91.5%, which could be rounded up to 92%. It would also square up with the estimated costs of $100/ton, since industrial electricity prices can go as low as 0.03 to 0.04 USD.

I wish I could read the source to verify, but unfortunately it's behind an academic publisher paywall.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#115

Post by malermeister » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #109

throwaway894345 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s remarkable how effectively the fossil fuel industry has gotten progressive environmentalists to believe that we can solve this problem without carbon tax. The moment you mention how a carbon tax works (that it’s a market mechanism) progressives recoil. When evangelizing to progressives, I try to focus on “making polluters pay for the damage they are doing” (as opposed to making taxpayers bail us out) since they…

The "polluters" are you and I. We buy the cars, we buy the other things, we use electricity and gas and oil in our homes and cars. We, the consumers, will ultimately pay any carbon taxes. Which may be appropriate, but let's not be unrealistic about who will be paying.

> We buy the cars

Speak for yourself. I haven't owned a car in my life and don't plan to change that.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#116

Post by lend000 » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #51

I’m actually interested in using this for terraforming Venus. We’ve got plenty of energy from sunlight and very concentrated co2. To keep them at the right temperature We could build floating blimps with these machines on board.

I wish there was more data on the reaction mechanism. It's unclear which way the equilibrium would shift at the high temperatures present on Venus, or if the solvent is an important part of the reaction/would be in liquid form on Venus (most solvents would not). But I agree that would be an awesome application.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#117

Post by adrianN » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #71

cogman10 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of a natural carbon market will never work out. There is simply too much carbon available for too low of a price. The carbon capture market NEEDS to have public funding/intervention to make it profitable. Now, carbon capture will be important if we want to have a chance of undoing atmospheric CO2, but IMO, while now it the time to invest in research it's not the time to deploy. More public/government fu…

Urine capture would work great if it's attached to every person. Even with renewable energy and electric transportation, if we could keep using oil but not produce CO2, then we should. Cheap energy is lifting humanity out of poverty.

You're assuming that the carbon capture process is cheaper than the shrinking price advantage of fossil fuels over renewables.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#118

Post by adrianN » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

pfortuny wrote: post #96

beders wrote: post #78

If we would charge the fossil fuel industry for the cost of destroying the environment, the millions of lives lost due to pollution, it would become infeasible to pump or mine more stuff out of the ground. We don't need technological solutions, we need political solutions. Now

Well, well, well… The political solution were nuclear plants in the 70’s. They were damned by the Ecologists (at least in Europe). We are reaping what we sowed. Where do you want the energy to come from?

Not building more nuclear in the seventies probably was a bad decision. But today it is not at all clear that nuclear is the cheapest solution for carbon-free energy. Neither is it clear whether we can scale nuclear quickly enough.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#119

Post by heavyset_go » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #109

throwaway894345 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s remarkable how effectively the fossil fuel industry has gotten progressive environmentalists to believe that we can solve this problem without carbon tax. The moment you mention how a carbon tax works (that it’s a market mechanism) progressives recoil. When evangelizing to progressives, I try to focus on “making polluters pay for the damage they are doing” (as opposed to making taxpayers bail us out) since they…

The "polluters" are you and I. We buy the cars, we buy the other things, we use electricity and gas and oil in our homes and cars. We, the consumers, will ultimately pay any carbon taxes. Which may be appropriate, but let's not be unrealistic about who will be paying.

Prices aren't determined by costs.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#120

Post by seventhtiger » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #117

seventhtiger wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urine capture would work great if it's attached to every person. Even with renewable energy and electric transportation, if we could keep using oil but not produce CO2, then we should. Cheap energy is lifting humanity out of poverty.

You're assuming that the carbon capture process is cheaper than the shrinking price advantage of fossil fuels over renewables.

I'm not. I'm just leaving room for an equilibrium that includes oil.

I don't believe we'll be able to take cheap sources of power offline without affecting the bottom line for the developing world. Poor countries can't make the choice to regulate themselves into worse conditions.

Centralizing carbon capture at power plants can be cost effective. The tech is almost within reach. It will vastly increase the amount of available energy in the world.