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iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

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Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#111

Post by macintux »

dylan604 wrote: post #77
marcellus23 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, they talk about how their AI is able to adjusts exposure, color tone, etc. Do they actually talk about how a macro is taken in such detail as focus stacking etc? Is that moving the goal posts a bit? Your point was that Apple is somehow pretending they're not using software to create this effect -- if they say they're using AI/etc. to do it, it seems to me like they're not misleading their customers. I don't th…

There's a difference in macro being 1:1 ratio (as understood in photography) vs having an AI do something to make something small look big in the image. So if their lenses are not delivering 1:1 but use some sort of algo, then it's misleading.

There are no shortage of lenses that are labeled macro but top out at 1:2, or even 1:4.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#112

Post by sudosysgen »

defaultname wrote: post #104
sudosysgen wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't use the same aperture. The SLR has to be at a smaller aperture so the diameter of the lens is the same. That way both will gather the same amount of light and have the same amount of bokeh. That's your issue - you need to use equivalent apertures.

At this point I'm sure you must be joking.

I really am not. If you don't believe me, calculate the depth of field on this website: https://www.pointsinfocus.com/tools/depth-of-field-and-equiv...

Set sensor size to "custom (NaNx)". Set Custom Sensor to "1". Set focal length to "25mm". Set aperture to "f/2". Set distance to 2m You will find a DoF of 759mm.

Then set Custom Sensor to "0.5". Set focal length to "50mm". Set aperture to "f/4". You will find a DoF of 748mm due to rounding errors in the calculator.

Then if you set custom sensor to 2, focal length to 12.5, and aperture to f/1, you'll find a DoF of 739, again not quite equal due to rounding errors.

As you see, if you double the sensor size, double the focal length, and use an equivalent aperture, you have the same DoF.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#113

Post by passivate »

packetslave wrote: post #37

Here's the thing about iPhone photography (and Android too, I suppose): if you know what a DSLR is, or the difference between DSLR and mirrorless bodies, you are not the target audience . Apple isn't trying compete with a $3500 Sony A7R4 with a $1000 90mm macro lens. They're aiming for people who see the example "macro" photos and say "neat! I want to try that". Or the people who have already bought a Moment macro le…

In my younger days I used to rail against unusable, slow, bloated apps, but most non tech people around me shrugged it off with a "dunno, works for me". I realized many people are happy with 2-3 second response times in software, which are horrendously slow when you care about performance.

Most tech has limitations/flaws, and there is always a target audience that doesn't care about those limitations/flaws.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#114

Post by passivate »

packetslave wrote: post #21
dylan604 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's how physics work. If iPhone Macro doesn't suffer the same issues, then it's a software trick

I wouldn't call it a "trick" but I suspect Apple is doing some focus stacking under the hood. The image pipeline in the iPhone gets more and more advanced with every IOS release. The state of the art for computational photography is pretty amazing.

Specifically, what is 'state of the art' in the iphones image pipeline? Many of these computational techniques (focus stacking, image averaging, subject recognition, face recognition, etc) have been in use for decades - but just not in a handheld device.

By the same token, I wouldn't call Google docs as 'state of the art' since its duplicating existing desktop software, but in a browser (not to minimize their effort, I'm sure its hard).

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#115

Post by passivate »

macintux wrote: post #10
flyinglizard wrote: post #5

Going be amazing for people working on PCBs, to read difficult package markings and to inspect solder pads instead of using a microscope.

Or just old people like me trying to read serial numbers on electronics hardware.

Yep! I knew I wasn't the only one :)

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#116

Post by jychang »

dylan604 wrote: post #18
defaultname wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having that functionality in your pocket, instantly usable, beats having an SLR in the closet at home with a macro lens that you can switch to for a passing need. And FWIW, the curse of SLR macro lenses is minuscule depth of field, so much so that many take many photos (presuming a perfectly stationary subject), bracket the focus, and stack by sharpness. It's a hugely involved process. A macro lens with a tiny focal…

But that's how physics work. If iPhone Macro doesn't suffer the same issues, then it's a software trick

It's not a software trick. Just one of the unintended benefits of having a smaller sensor.

Full frame sensors have thin depth of field. Small sensors like an iPhone don't have that, so they fake it with portrait mode.

But when you do macro photography, having thin DoF becomes a drawback, so with big DSLRs you have to do focus stacking (which is unnecessary on an iphone).

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#117

Post by packetslave »

passivate wrote: post #114
packetslave wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call it a "trick" but I suspect Apple is doing some focus stacking under the hood. The image pipeline in the iPhone gets more and more advanced with every IOS release. The state of the art for computational photography is pretty amazing.

Specifically, what is 'state of the art' in the iphones image pipeline? Many of these computational techniques (focus stacking, image averaging, subject recognition, face recognition, etc) have been in use for decades - but just not in a handheld device. By the same token, I wouldn't call Google docs as 'state of the art' since its duplicating existing desktop software, but in a browser (not to minimize their effort,…

You said it yourself: "just not in a handheld device" and not in what is effectively realtime.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#118

Post by EugeneOZ »

mithr wrote: post #41
packetslave wrote: post #37

Here's the thing about iPhone photography (and Android too, I suppose): if you know what a DSLR is, or the difference between DSLR and mirrorless bodies, you are not the target audience . Apple isn't trying compete with a $3500 Sony A7R4 with a $1000 90mm macro lens. They're aiming for people who see the example "macro" photos and say "neat! I want to try that". Or the people who have already bought a Moment macro le…

I think that's largely true -- if you frequently need to take professional macro shots, you'll already have your own, better setup anyhow, and won't be switching to a phone camera anytime soon. However, somewhat surprisingly (for me at least), this seems to actually be good enough to also satisfy those that do carry fancy cameras, but don't need to take macro shots that often... from https://austinmann.com/trek/iphon…

no, the difference between a full-frame DSLR and any phone camera is night and day. It's just ridiculous to read articles about phone cameras with their ugly photos where authors are writing something like “wow it's amazing - best camera ever, you don't need a pro camera anymore”. It's so funny.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#119

Post by EugeneOZ »

amelius wrote: post #67
packetslave wrote: post #37

Here's the thing about iPhone photography (and Android too, I suppose): if you know what a DSLR is, or the difference between DSLR and mirrorless bodies, you are not the target audience . Apple isn't trying compete with a $3500 Sony A7R4 with a $1000 90mm macro lens. They're aiming for people who see the example "macro" photos and say "neat! I want to try that". Or the people who have already bought a Moment macro le…

It's the other way around. People with iPhones look at professional photography and will say "I want that too", and they're disappointed if their iPhone can't do it, so Apple makes sure it can.

No, laws of physics will not be changed just because customers want it. You want a more detailed photo - take a bigger sensor, better lenses. The software can improve something, but not create the details.

Re: iPhone Macro: A Big Day for Small Things

#120

Post by crancher »

dylan604 wrote: post #76
packetslave wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tend to have sessions at WWDC about the underlying camera pipeline, for developers who care. Product launch keynotes are the wrong forum for deep technical talks.

that's not what the person I responded to implied. they specifically called out the keynote

The do indeed call it out in the keynote, including a slide with graphics indicating what each stage does.
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