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The Science of the Benefits of Religion

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Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#111

Post by worrycue »

woodpanel wrote: post #79
estaseuropano wrote: post #6

There seems to be little doubt that religion, faith, spirituality or rite can have benefits. The question is how to get the good side of all these (community, meaning, satisfaction and fulfilment) without the nasty side (exclusion and intolerance, resistance to or denial of reality, imposition of impossible standards, the denial of one's own preferences and wants). Religion has been a major source of soothing and a m…

> Religion has been a major source of soothing and a major source of suffering for all of humanity's past The idea that religion is such a big source of suffering throughout all of our history is one I stopped believing once I took a closer look at the actual nature of war, particulary how a country's elite is moving closer to war and how "religious" said elite actually is. IMO the amounts of blood shed over millenia…

I believe plenty of people have been killed for religious reasons.

Sure religion is used as an excuse to start wars but wouldn't the fact that it works means people are willing to kill because of it?

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#112

Post by truetraveller »

jhgb wrote: post #107
truetraveller wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should France tolerate intolerance? How is voluntarily wearing the head scarf "intolerance". >the French president is alive. So what? It's still within my "Freedom of Speech" to say whatever I want, as long as it does not directly incite violence. Regardless of whatever Frances' convenient version is. I believe even the US allows insulting the president.

> How is voluntarily wearing the head scarf "intolerance". "Voluntarily", sure. > So what? It's still within my "Freedom of Speech" to say whatever I want, as long as it does not directly incite violence. Whatever the court says to be within your rights is the thing that is within your rights. It's the courts that interpret law. Are you a court? Specifically, if you're in France, are you a French court?

> "Voluntarily", sure.

There are many who want to voluntarily wear hijab to school in France, but are denied this right. So, my point stands that this "secular" law is intolerant.

>Whatever the court says to be within your rights

Weak argument. Let's say an extremist court says women have no right to education. Or, that blacks are less human, say the have less rights.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#113

Post by truetraveller »

tapas73 wrote: post #110
truetraveller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nasty side applies just as well to non-religious, non-spiritual communities. Even worse, perhaps. There are many examples. Look at the intolerance and hypocrisy in France, one of the most secular states. A girl is not allowed to go to school with the Muslim head scarf. This is worse than the Taliban. France allows insulting the Prophet (pbuh), but you'll get to jail for insulting the president. France has killed/…

> A girl is not allowed to go to school with the Muslim head scarf. This is worse than the Taliban. You can't be serious. Somewhat relevant article about new university rules for women in Afganistan (rules created by taliban). https://m.timesofindia.com/world/south-asia/taliban-order-un...

I'm serious. You have a country that toots the "freedom" horn doing gross intolerance. So this is hypocrisy + intolerance. The Taliban never claimed "freedom" anywhere.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#114

Post by tapas73 »

hota_mazi wrote: post #105
truetraveller wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivation to do good, and stay away from evil. The idea that a person if being watched. You can never get that with atheism. Atheism is just ruthless "survival of the fittest", when push comes to shove.

You think that doing good only because you are being watched is a good value to have? IF yes, then please, by all means, continue believing in your god if that's all that keeps you from raping and killing people. Atheists do good because it's the right thing to do. You seem to do it because you are afraid of getting punished.

> Atheists do good because it's the right thing to do.

Or is remnant from religious generation? (parents programm kids that doing good is right thing to do because God says so. Certain generation starts omitting "God says so" part)

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#115

Post by truetraveller »

hota_mazi wrote: post #103
truetraveller wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, insulting the President is an offense. Typical hypocrisy + lying by the French government. https://www.timesofisrael.com/frenchman-fined-for-billboard-... About the hijab. You say "Simply enforce these principles". Yes, and these principles are intolerant, which is my point. And this pick-and-choosing secularism when convenient, is a type of opression.

I guess you could say they are intolerant of all religions, but that's a stretch. The bottom line is that all displays of religion are banned in French schools, which puts everyone on an equal footing. Even religious people should see the value of that, especially if you're part of a minority religion. Schools are places where you learn, not practice religion. That's what places of worship are for.

> I guess you could say they are intolerant of all religions

Yes, intolerant. But also hypocritical (see the Macron's hypocrisy of free speech).

> which puts everyone on an equal footing

It does not. Some religions mandate certain attire. And certain religions / atheism does not. So, it is not fair for a student to be denied practicing his/her religion, if his/her religion mandates the head scarf. While an atheist has no worry, since he/she has not religous command to wear a certain attire.

> Schools are places where you learn, not practice religion

Who is any person or government to dictate this to me? If I want to voluntarily do something peaceful, I should be able to. What's next, "homes are for living, not religion".

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#116

Post by smackeyacky »

truetraveller wrote: post #101
hota_mazi wrote: post #74

Right on. I challenge anyone who disagrees to come up with a benefit that religion offers that cannot be offered by a secular organization.

The motivation to do good, and stay away from evil. The idea that a person if being watched. You can never get that with atheism. Atheism is just ruthless "survival of the fittest", when push comes to shove.

This is 100% wrong.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#117

Post by truetraveller »

hota_mazi wrote: post #105
truetraveller wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivation to do good, and stay away from evil. The idea that a person if being watched. You can never get that with atheism. Atheism is just ruthless "survival of the fittest", when push comes to shove.

You think that doing good only because you are being watched is a good value to have? IF yes, then please, by all means, continue believing in your god if that's all that keeps you from raping and killing people. Atheists do good because it's the right thing to do. You seem to do it because you are afraid of getting punished.

>You think that doing good only because you are being watched

Never said "only because" of being watched. Being watched is an added measure.

> Atheists do good because it's the right thing to do

Many atheists, from personal experience, most don't really care to do good when no one's watching. Not saying it applies to all atheists, but for many. It's simply not rational. Why do good? For "karma"? So, the atheist has replaced "God" for "karma"?

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#118

Post by crocodiletears »

jhgb wrote: post #58
crocodiletears wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are social norms. We inflict such things on them in secular society as well. At the risk of citing an undesirable author, Kaczynski had a real good schpiel about it in Industrial society.

What exactly are the "social norms" you're talking about?

Any normative claim that suggests an individual or group is morally less-than or unworthy of participating in society if they don't wholly affirm or adopt a specific worldview. Consider contemporary discourse surrounding gender identity, the legitimacy of the nation state, border controls, and other political wedge issues.

Information control has been one of the chief concerns of our social institutions, because certain ideas have been deemed unfit to even be considered in our discourse because we're concerned that exposure alone is enough to potentially corrupt someone who might otherwise be a moral and decent person.

The thoughts we allow in polite society are always bounded, and it is always painful for those outside of it whether they're coming from a priest, a teacher, a parent, a corporate bureaucrat, or a government official.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#119

Post by truetraveller »

smackeyacky wrote: post #116
truetraveller wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivation to do good, and stay away from evil. The idea that a person if being watched. You can never get that with atheism. Atheism is just ruthless "survival of the fittest", when push comes to shove.

This is 100% wrong.

IMHO, this is a specious statement. [Edited to remove flamewar].

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#120

Post by [deleted] »

lisper wrote: post #57
smackeyacky wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% no. Faith in religion is a completely different thing to believing the scientific method works. Science is self correcting. Religious faith is, by definition, the surrendering of any and every impulse to question the faith to a higher earthly authority. Those earthly authorities are notoriously unreliable (c.f. history of the Jehovah's Witness "end of the world" scenarios). I know this is hard for religious peop…

> There is no effort we can put in. Well, that's not quite true. I'm an atheist, and I run a weekly Bible study (which has lately morphed into more of a general theological/philosophical study and discussion group) [1]. Religious traditions are worth studying even if you don't believe in them, if for no other reason, than as a way of better understanding the thought processes of people who do believe in them. [1] htt…

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