Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#111

Post by twstdsistrs84 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

cbdumas wrote: post #104

twstdsistrs84 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunit…

> covid vaccines do not prevent infection This is untrue, see this site and the studies in the footnotes: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var... TL;DR: Vaccines are effective, though not perfect, at preventing infection with the delta variant

That's nice. Your politicized data contradicts less-politicized data coming out of Israel showing vaccinated catching covid at a higher rate than the unvaccinated.

What are your thoughts on the CDC having different reporting criteria for the vaccinated and unvaccinated? For instance - vaccinated individuals have a lower max cycle threshold in PCR testing than unvaccinated. Additionally, many unvaccinated are forced to test regularly while vaccinated are not -- do you think this might also skew the data being published by the cdc?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#112

Post by yongjik » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

swayvil wrote: post #86

thrill wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have a choice. Take the vaccine if you want to work in the federal government or find another job. The government doesn't owe you or anyone else a job.

That's a really poisonous argument.

So is saying "Never trust an authority."

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#113

Post by not2b » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #25

dragontamer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was someth…

That's incorrect, natural immunity will last many years. Your antibody levels do go down but your body remembers how to make more. Vaccine immunity does seem to need booster shots.

We do not have data to support the claim "natural immunity will last many years", as the disease hasn't existed for many years. There are studies that go in both directions as to whether recovery from infection provides better protection against future infection or not, and there seems to be a lot of cherry-picking by people trying to support their own arguments.

If we can't eliminate Covid, there will be mutations that reduce effectiveness of immunity whether obtained by vaccines or by previous infection, and everyone will need boosters, like we do for influenza shots.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#114

Post by angelzen » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #87

gregwebs wrote: post #57

IMHO the effective thing to do is to focus all our efforts on vaccinating 100% of those that will end up in the ICU (the elderly and those with co-morbidities). These kinds of vaccine mandates get some of those at the greatest risk vaccinated but also ends up being a giant distraction in the US and makes it harder for the rest of the world to get the vaccines that they need as well. I think the blanket mandate approa…

That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a…

It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria.

As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#115

Post by sk2020 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

spywaregorilla wrote: post #93

sk2020 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your vaccine does not work unless someone or everyone else has one? Has this been observed with previous vaccine products?

Everyone getting vaccinated has clear benefits, and helps avoids breakouts. See mumps, measles, polio, etc.

Well, probably not the people with myocarditis or Bell’s palsy.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#116

Post by rajin444 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #110

AndrewBissell wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't pretend to be at all concerned about ICU capacity if you also support mass firings of nurses who won't take the vaccine, which is another of the "prongs" being rolled out by Biden today.

So you support having unvaccinated nurses in hospitals full of people with compromised immune systems? How does that work?

If this is a major concern testing daily is the only option. The covid vaccine's efficacy wanes over time.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#117

Post by tzs » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

twstdsistrs84 wrote: post #97

threatofrain wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunit…

> Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail.

They do appear to reduce the length of infection which would reduce transmission.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#118

Post by donutdan4114 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

literallyaduck wrote: post #80

Isn't this an unnecessary medical procedure for people who have already recovered?

CDC says vaccines are still better: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/

This paper says natural immunity better: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

Unfortunately the science is evolving so fast and the variants are coming so fast, it's impossible to keep up!

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#119

Post by not2b » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #101

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

My takeaway is the opposite: I'm pleasantly surprised with how many people are vaccinated, and how quickly. It's hard to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on just about anything. When you look at the hold-outs, it's largely young people who are at very low risk of serious illness. (85% of 65 and older are vaccinated, but just 57% of people 18-29.) So it makes sense to me that they are more hesitant.

No, it's only been hard to get 2/3 of Americans to go along quite recently. Everyone lined up for vaccines in the 1950s and 1960s, numbers well over 90%.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#120

Post by whymauri » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #89

whymauri wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some more relevant data here: https://archive.is/RrzbZ >Polling data from the Kaiser Family Foundation released [0] Wednesday morning (week of August 4th) makes obvious the disparity in the importance of each group. It estimates that Black Americans make up about 13 percent of the unvaccinated population and 13 percent of the group that says it will never receive a dose of the vaccine. Republicans, by contrast, make…

What is the usefulness of including race data in polls like this? I'm French and I have little if nothing in common with other "white" people.

Developing targeted campaigns to encourage vaccination. There is hesitancy in the US black population, especially in the South, to trust health government-based health institutions. There's also less access to healthcare resources. See: Tuskegee Syphilis Study as a case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

For Latinos, there's a language gap that needs to be overcome for large projects like this (other notable example is census hesitancy due to risk of deportation for family and friends). Anything that can get you or your household on a government record garners suspicion from the recently immigrated and those housing undocumented people (even if the current government says it's OK, who's the say the next one won't raid your home?). The television pundits definitely don't help.

In my city, Cambridge, there was a huge vaccination push for the black population. It included priority access, more accessible clinics + hours, door-to-door advocacy/pamphlets, and getting support from local black institutions and community centers. Our rates for black residents shot up after that.

The deeper you read into the historical of medical abuse and misinformation towards minorities and the poor in the US, the faster you realize why targeting and messaging matters.