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The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

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Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#111

Post by riezebos »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #89
HWR_14 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you are talking about. Microsoft built a Linux compatible subsystem for Windows and also built (well, acquired) .NET VMs for OSX/Linux. It's trying hard to keep people on the desktop - any desktop.

You're kidding, right? WSL is not related to cross-platform GUIs we're talking about, and .NET Core doesn't support Windows Forms/WPF - and probably never will, for the reasons mentioned above.

That's not completely true, while WSL doesn't help Windows GUI apps to be more cross-platform, it does help Linux GUI apps to work on Windows[0]

So to refer back to the top comment we could say that Microsoft is proposing WSL as a cross-platform API for GUI apps.

[0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-a...

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#112

Post by speedgoose »

wastholm wrote: post #45
speedgoose wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have a lot web apps on mobile because the mobile web browsers provide a worse experience compared to native applications, unlike Electron or Chrome on Desktop that provides a much better experience in general (unless you have a 10 years old hardware with very little ram or are into old school GUI I know). The companies making web browsers and mobile operating systems are the same companies making native app…

> mobile web browsers provide a worse experience compared to native applications, unlike Electron or Chrome on Desktop that provides a much better experience in general Electron apps are perhaps faster and cheaper to make than native desktop GUI apps for most organizations because they already have Web developers, but I've never heard anyone claim they're "better" than native, if that's what you're saying. Do you mea…

Yes I was more thinking about development. Faster and cheaper development is the key. Development teams can focus more on the user experience and the features.

You also get a good application on all platforms, GNU/Linux, Windows, and Mac which is nice and used to not be the case.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#113

Post by scns »

skc wrote: post #101
spaetzleesser wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has destroyed the Windows desktop singlehandedly on their own. Since Win8 and “Metro” they moved away from having consistent UI widgets like it was in Windows 2000 or XP but instead made the Windows desktop a Wild West if different UI paradigms. Even the ribbon introduced a new UI paradigm that wasn’t available to third party devs. If even MS themselves doesn’t bother to be consistent then developers certai…

Well that's all well and good but it doesn't explain why even Mac OS devs are moving en masse to building for the web.

Maybe they want their programs to be useable by non Mac users too?

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#114

Post by herbst »

riezebos wrote: post #111
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're kidding, right? WSL is not related to cross-platform GUIs we're talking about, and .NET Core doesn't support Windows Forms/WPF - and probably never will, for the reasons mentioned above.

That's not completely true, while WSL doesn't help Windows GUI apps to be more cross-platform, it does help Linux GUI apps to work on Windows[0] So to refer back to the top comment we could say that Microsoft is proposing WSL as a cross-platform API for GUI apps. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-a...

The real bonus are the TUI apps tho. No idea what Windows users did all the years without proper command line commands, now if they include a proper shell they could really make a dent in the Linux desktop stats

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#115

Post by jamil7 »

speedgoose wrote: post #110
jamil7 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed it’s an excellent editor however it has a lot of engineering resources behind it and still suffers from sluggish performance, especially on startup.

It starts quickly on my laptops. What kind of hardware do you use ?

Both an Intel and an M1 mac, it's especially noticeable on the newer machine as native apps open instantly, even Xcode, which is a pig seems to open quicker. Like I said it's a great editor and I use it when I need to do some Python or JS work (remote/ssh development functionality is especially nice) but I don't think it's immune from the resource argument against electron.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#117

Post by herbst »

mastrsushi wrote: post #14

There’s nothing wrong with the industry wanting to switch to layout engines for desktop applications. The problem is that this type of runtime environment is still fairly new. Desktop OS’s should have HTML/JS runtime built into the application layer, maybe even deeper. It’s such a dominant user functionality these days. Instead we get a bunch of headless chrome instances. There needs to be an engine that maybe isn’t…

I love building UIs with HTML and I am ok with building JavaScript.

BUT this would not be the solution. People would still run different html and js engines and everything would be a mess. Not to mention the js ecosystem with its dependency creeps isn't known to be efficient. There have been and are plenty of other multi platform languages that have less platform issues. Like: Java or Haxe.

That said I am pretty sure gnome shell comes with a complete js API.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#118

Post by blub »

WA wrote: post #102
blub wrote: post #95

The technological change is following the changes in the nature of software development. Perhaps the most important one is the wide-spread contamination with the poisonous mix of VC money with the start-up "move fast and break things" mentality. Notice how the arguments pro Electron always include speed of development, speed of deployment, etc. (dev-focused) and the counter-arguments include performance, usability, e…

> Notice how the arguments pro Electron always include speed of development, speed of deployment, etc. (dev-focused) You kinda oversimplify the multi-platform reality of 2021 and its requirements from a user perspective . Most apps used to be Windows-only. Nowadays, most apps need to be Windows, macOS, iOS and Android. This is a user-focused requirement. "It's either a multi-platform Electron app or it is no macOS ap…

Quite an awkward link that. Deep down the author feels bad from the cognitive dissonance experienced by offering an inferior solution and they are writing as a means of catharsis, more to convince themselves than others.

It's doubtful that most apps need to be cross-platform to such an extent. Any of those markets has such a large number of buyers that there should be no problem to build a company like the one mentioned in your link. At the same time all of those markets suffer from various pathologies which makes it difficult to build such a business. Market dynamics make it very hard to make a profit and deliver quality software that doesn't stab the user in the back through ads, subscriptions, tracking, etc.

Using Electron is a compromise done by the business for the business, not for the customers. They need money from more people, but don't have the resources or skills to deliver, so they resort to the only solution which helps them achieve their goals, however full of compromises it may be. Let's not pretend that they're going cross-platform only so that the poor macOS users have access to hair salon software.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#119

Post by Paradigma11 »

jeswin wrote: post #33
smackeyacky wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help that for the major consumer platform (Windows), Microsoft can't make their mind up about how to replace Win32 or WinForms. It seems like every other week there is some new framework announced, so even if you have a need to make a native app, choosing how to do it has become near impossible. Is it .NET Maui? Should I try Electronize? or take a huge punt on Avalonia? It's easier just to wrap up a web ap…

That train left long back; nobody wants a Windows-only app when half the management are using Macs. Unless of course you're taking about pro apps like AutoCad or Photoshop; but they have never been electron and unlikely to ever be.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/maui/what-is-maui

.NET Multi-platform App UI (.NET MAUI) is a cross-platform framework for creating native mobile and desktop apps with C# and XAML. Using .NET MAUI, you can develop apps that can run on Android, iOS, macOS, and Windows from a single shared code-base.

Re: The web is swallowing the desktop whole (2017)

#120

Post by smackeyacky »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #119
jeswin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That train left long back; nobody wants a Windows-only app when half the management are using Macs. Unless of course you're taking about pro apps like AutoCad or Photoshop; but they have never been electron and unlikely to ever be.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/maui/what-is-maui .NET Multi-platform App UI (.NET MAUI) is a cross-platform framework for creating native mobile and desktop apps with C# and XAML. Using .NET MAUI, you can develop apps that can run on Android, iOS, macOS, and Windows from a single shared code-base.

No linux. Where 25% of .net developers are. Its not going to fly.
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