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A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

wsj.com

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Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#111

Post by CRConrad »

cptskippy wrote: post #57
usui wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quit being dishonest. You're not trying to understand because it's really fucking easy to understand. Again, being very disingenuous. I'm sorry that it's so offensive to you that I was reading the article in Japanese and found it very strange that imperial units were leaking across not only domain topics (semiconductors), but language itself. If you ask me, it's more obtrusive this way than the other way around. I…

> I'm sorry that it's so offensive to you Let's clarify. You're sorry that I find your insults offensive? > Lol every time I see the word "feet" I'm reminded that this article isn't targeted to anyone but Americans > I absolutely have never had to use those units in a serious professional context. > Any time I see a technically-sounding article use units like "feet" and "football fields" I subconsciously find it very…

> Let's clarify. You're sorry that I find your insults offensive?

No, they're sorry that you're being such an arsehole. HTH!

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#112

Post by CRConrad »

evancox100 wrote: post #20
cartoonworld wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems reasonable, semi is fabbed with a lithographic process, the # of devices on the wafer isn’t necessarily tightly coupled with size, has variable resolution and defects. The work unit is completed wafers that later get binned into different device quality levels. Makes sense when your biz is to blast plasma over mm2 of silicon

What you're saying seems to make sense if they were referring to output in terms of total area of substrates produced, but instead sounds like TFA is talking about manufacturing floor space

> sounds like TFA is talking about manufacturing floor space

Does it really? I for one certainly did a double-take at the GP's interpretation. It's a product that's usually measured in surface area, and was reported in surface area. Feels pretty obviously related to the product itself, not the factory floor.

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#113

Post by CRConrad »

HPsquared wrote: post #106
hfktktnfkgk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chip companies also know that they will definitely buy electricity in the future, yet they are not buying power plants. In a sense, buying the future substrate production is just a future substrate contract. Do you know how building a power plant is financed today? Basically someone buys 10 years of gas futures, sells 10 years of equivalent electricity futures, and uses the profit (since electricity is more expen…

I suppose they could also just sell the electricity futures first, then build the plant, then buy gas as needed. That'd put them at risk of gas prices fluctuating though, might turn off investors. I assume a random person can't just sell 10 years of electricity futures without some kind of collateral.

> I assume a random person can't just sell 10 years of electricity futures without some kind of collateral.

Maybe they run the negotiations in parallel, so they can kind of use one set of futures as collateral for the other?

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#114

Post by mulmen »

CRConrad wrote: post #109
mulmen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all get it, Americans with their imperial units, ha ha. It's really very tired. Americans don't even use Imperial units. We use United States Customary Units [1] which are more like siblings to Imperial units than offspring. United States customary units have been based on familiar Metric units since the Mendenhall Order in 1893 . School children in the United States have studied the metric system for generation…

> United States customary units have been based on familiar Metric units since the Mendenhall Order in 1893. No. They may be defined in terms of Metric units, but they aren't "based on" them. If they were based on them, they'd be a sensible integer (or decimal-factor) multiple of them, not some weird fractional measure. An inch being 25.4 millimeters may be the current definition of an inch, but that arbitrary length…

Ok, fine, defined in terms of.

There’s nothing odd about the fractional scale, nor is it unique to US Customary Units.

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#115

Post by CivBase »

blacktriangle wrote: post #104

Has anybody ever considered that better software may be a part of the solution to the chip shortage? Going back to actually caring about things like efficiency and using the hardware properly instead of living in layers of software abstraction miles high? We put men on the moon with chips that could probably be manufactured in somebody's basement. We easily fulfill society's NEEDs with that level of hardware, we just…

I'm not sure why you'd think software inefficiency has anything to do with it. It's not a significant factor driving demand for new hardware.

Demand for gaming PCs and consoles have nothing to do with inefficient software. Demand for automobiles has nothing to do with inefficient software. Demand for servers, networking equipment, and office PCs to support a suddenly-working-from-home labor force has nothing to do with inefficient software. Windows 11 not supporting 5-year-old hardware, crypto booms, and pathetically short support windows for smartphones have nothing to do with inefficient hardware.

My 6-year-old laptop and 5-year-old desktop handle Electron apps just fine. It would be nice if the software was more efficient, but practically nobody is rushing out to replace a computer that was any good to begin with because Discord and Skype take up an extra 50 MB.

Besides, making software more efficient is a long-term solution to a short-term problem.

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#116

Post by cptskippy »

scrollaway wrote: post #82
cptskippy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insulting and making fun of people because they have a problem isn't helpful but ok, but responding "aggressively" to insults is bad?

I don't see any insults or "making fun of people" in the comments you're responding to. You're choosing to see that. Apply the Principle of good faith and you'll see you're the one getting worked up over nothing...

I'm sorry you feel like I'm worked up but please don't put that on me.

I've linked to the OP's original comment but to paraphrase:

"LOL, I can't take anyone seriously when they use Imperial units. It's unprofessional."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28449058

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#117

Post by cptskippy »

hermitdev wrote: post #83
cptskippy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why use them at all? Just for relatability? Yes. Was that hard? The WSJ didn't write this article for you, it isn't an industry rag. This is like complaining that their scientific articles try to dumb it down for a layman's depth. A football field or soccer field is a perfectly reasonable unit of measure when you're simply trying to convey "a lot" to someone.

Pedantically, at least a standard US football field is an exact size (120yds long, 53 1/3 yds wide). Soccer pitches? Not so much ... FIFA states the field of play for international matches should be 100-110m long and 64-75m wide (tolerances are relaxed to 90-120m long by 45-90m wide - which oddly means you could have a square pitch). If one would like an example of a comically undersized pitch, look to NYFC playing a…

I don't think anyone uses them as exact units of measure but rather to communicate a size in relatable terms. When you relate scale to something familiar it elicits connotations from an individual's experience that makes things easier to comprehend.

Most people have seen a football or soccer field and understand the approximate size.

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#118

Post by cptskippy »

imtringued wrote: post #88
cptskippy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why use them at all? Just for relatability? Yes. Was that hard? The WSJ didn't write this article for you, it isn't an industry rag. This is like complaining that their scientific articles try to dumb it down for a layman's depth. A football field or soccer field is a perfectly reasonable unit of measure when you're simply trying to convey "a lot" to someone.

If everyone uses a different unit then it may not appear to be a lot at all. Nobody is measuring office space in football fields so how am I supposed to know how a football field sized manufacturing plant compares to an office building?

In general conversation, or general news articles people don't need exact units of measure because they're not acting upon that information. You use an approximation like football fields because it elicits a connotation and can help people easily grasp the scale.

Re: A big hurdle to fixing the chip shortage: substrates

#120

Post by cartoonworld »

evancox100 wrote: post #20
cartoonworld wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems reasonable, semi is fabbed with a lithographic process, the # of devices on the wafer isn’t necessarily tightly coupled with size, has variable resolution and defects. The work unit is completed wafers that later get binned into different device quality levels. Makes sense when your biz is to blast plasma over mm2 of silicon

What you're saying seems to make sense if they were referring to output in terms of total area of substrates produced, but instead sounds like TFA is talking about manufacturing floor space

You're right, I didn't pick up on that, thank you.
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