Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#111

Post by qwerty456127 » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

quantum_magpie wrote: post #81

captainmuon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside the obvious, that it probably has a lot of downsides and doesn't work well (like shrinking testicles and heart problems from steroids). Our society has a real discomfort with "improving" "healthy" people. We make a clear, but somewhat artificial distinction between healthy and diseased, and the diseased people can get recognition and treatment but the healthy ones cannot. That's why there is often a b…

An excellent goal! I too hope that it will be possible to experiment and improve the performance of a human with tested, verified substances, known concentrations of active agents in them by legal means. As it stands now, in my country in EU, not only it's impossible to legally take amphetamines for ADHD (only Concerta is allowed for children), it's actually forbidden to diagnose it in adults. So here I am, sitting w…

By the way, given the fact American science is universally recognized, I actually wonder why won't all the counties and the EU countries in particular just recognize everything FDA approves. It is scientifically, clinically and time-proven Adderall helps with ADHD and hardly does any harm. Yet they stubbornly refuse to legalize it.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#112

Post by sterlind » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

amai wrote: post #108

Actually steroids are used to treat people with muscular dystrophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid#Medical But they have a lot of side effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid#Adverse_effec... Therefor scientists started to investigate different substances like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_mo... But these might still have severe side effects ( https://en.wik…

Your wiki link doesn't say anything about muscular dystrophy. It mentions treatment of wasting syndrome (e.g. from HIV or cancer) but that's a metabolic issue rather than a muscle issue.

A quick googling reveals a 1965 paper that says anabolic steroids are ineffective, and some follow-up papers that talk about oxandrolone being modestly effective but mostly through glucocorticoid mechanisms (e.g. like Prednisone, not Testosterone)

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#113

Post by sterlind » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #88

TurboHaskal wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxandrolone is amazing. It's such a same there's a stigma around these substances because this particular one could improve so many lives.

Am I missing something? Is there a stigma around using prescription drugs? I mean, sure there is a stigma for bodybuilding - but this drug is used for a variety of medical things. In other words, it is already used to improve lives. And it seems there is good reason to have it be a prescription: Some of the side effects aren't wonderful and it would seem reasonable to at least get regular blood tests if you are takin…

There's a stigma against prescribing anabolic steroids, sort of like how there's a stigma against prescribing opioids. They are prescribed, but doctors are wary that patients might just want the gear and aren't suffering enough to warrant it.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#114

Post by Galactasm » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

I read one of the linked articles in the article, the one that said men who take steroids and don’t exercise gain more muscle mass than men who don’t take steroids but do exercise. I should admit that I’m personally biased against the conclusion but I find the results interesting. I had a few nitpicks however:

1. I question how optimal the training stimulus was. They said it was controlled and they worked out 3 times a week and for the squat/bench press they started out at 4 sets of 6 reps varying between 70/80/90 % initial one rep max and then increased weights after 5 weeks and increased the number of sets to 5. I think it’s obvious that more exercise would result in more muscle mass gain up to a certain point and I think the amount of volume they’re doing is really suboptimal even for a more average weight lifter. I didn’t see them go into more detail about the workout routine which would’ve been nice.

2. With such a minimal routine, muscle mass gain is going to be limited to the areas that are being exercised. Taking steroids is going to increase all muscle mass throughout the body. The placebo + exercise group had a slightly higher increase in strength, very slight, but still higher than the steroid + no exercise group. If they wanted, a weight lifter could change the routine to maximize overall muscle mass gain. Presumably they weren’t really hitting some muscle groups (shoulders, hamstrings, calves, back, core). They weren’t doing deadlifts. So it makes sense that the steroid + no exercise group had higher muscle mass gain because they were experiencing a full body stimulus whereas the exercise + placebo were not (even if they were I question how optimal the routine was since as far as I could tell they didn’t release detailed workout routine).

3. This is even more nitpicky, but there is going to be a limited ceiling with no external stimulus (exercise). In the long run the steroid + no-ex group will plateau whereas the placebo + ex group will be able to increase muscle for much longer.

So I guess I disagree with the conclusion “men who take steroids but don’t exercise gain more muscle mass than no steroids + exercise” despite the results supporting it.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#115

Post by brianwawok » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #88

TurboHaskal wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxandrolone is amazing. It's such a same there's a stigma around these substances because this particular one could improve so many lives.

Am I missing something? Is there a stigma around using prescription drugs? I mean, sure there is a stigma for bodybuilding - but this drug is used for a variety of medical things. In other words, it is already used to improve lives. And it seems there is good reason to have it be a prescription: Some of the side effects aren't wonderful and it would seem reasonable to at least get regular blood tests if you are takin…

A stigma in recreational sports too.

See it come across as "I got 2nd place in a men's triathlon. I found out the winner is on TRT, which is not allowed. How do I get them DQed so that I can rightly claim my medal?"

Which to me makes sense, but age groupers don't get any blood testing done, so it's a bit of a he-said she-said thing.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#116

Post by dillondoyle » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

doix wrote: post #72

dillondoyle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone here used it? Or TB-500? I have a tendon/pulley injury that doesn't seem to want to heal and I've been researching it. At least one relevant study. There is one Dr. in my area (a gyno of all things) that has a website promoting his practice using it. So has at least a sheen of professionalism. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030672/

I used both BPC-157 and TB-500 for a grade 4 SLAP tear. There are different surgeries used for SLAP tears, and I could not find a surgeon that would do the surgery I wanted (in the UK). I can't remember the exact details, but one is more risky and has a higher chance of returning to pre-surgery performance (normally athletes would take this option). The other is less risky but screws up your performance (general popu…

i'm happy for you! yes serious athletes have different goals there are for sure athlete specific surgeons in the US. Check out the Steadman Clinic if you haven't already.

Not sure if sourcing is illegal on HN. If you have any suggestions I can't tell what is legitimate online or not. or if this is not good I have an email in my profile if you are willing to share

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#117

Post by dillondoyle » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #64

dillondoyle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone here used it? Or TB-500? I have a tendon/pulley injury that doesn't seem to want to heal and I've been researching it. At least one relevant study. There is one Dr. in my area (a gyno of all things) that has a website promoting his practice using it. So has at least a sheen of professionalism. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030672/

I have tried both, for a nagging rugby-induced shoulder injury. Nothing. Nada. No perceptible difference. I am…passingly acquainted…with injectable performance-enhancing drugs, and TB-500 and BPC-157 just did nothing for me. Nor did they for a good friend. Now, that is a tiny sample size, and largely meaningless. (Did our supplier actually manage to get ahold of or synthesize a complex long-chain peptide? Shrug!) But…

Yes the supply is my #1 concern / question. It doesn't seem like there is any downside risk so long as it's really the actual not contaminated peptides.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#118

Post by dillondoyle » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #101

dillondoyle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yup!! hang boarding, micro needling, some finger/arm exercises from PT. i climbed seriously as a kid until like 22 ish. then didn't for 7 ish years. it's now close to 2 years back (sep 24). I think that's the main issue, my skill/strength is higher than my fingers. Though I'm still decently strong just have pain/days I can't do much and fingers are weak compared to what I used to have. what about you? I've been think…

A little off topic, but what is your goal with the micro needling? I thought that was a purely cosmetic procedure for things like acne scars, but now I'm wondering if I missed something.

It might not be the correct term, but my PT uses tiny needles and places them into my arm tendons (higher up). And then turns on electricity between the needles.

I know a lot of serious athletes swear by it and I definitely feel the effects.

It's hard to describe the sensation it doesn't hurt too much (though tapping into tight areas does hurt a bit). You can feel the change in how the tendon/whatever passes current when connected.

Like at first when really tight the finger doesn't really twitch but after a bit when it releases it goes wild.

Afterwards I'm weak for the afternoon and then feel looser after. I might equate it to an intenseness massage or Myofascial release treatment but highly specific for my inside the arm tendons.

I recommend it, but I would think only with an actual Doctorate PT.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#119

Post by dillondoyle » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #58

dillondoyle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone here used it? Or TB-500? I have a tendon/pulley injury that doesn't seem to want to heal and I've been researching it. At least one relevant study. There is one Dr. in my area (a gyno of all things) that has a website promoting his practice using it. So has at least a sheen of professionalism. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21030672/

i am not a climber but I had a pulley injury that didn't really go away until I got cortisone to kill the inflammation it was causing. But repeated cortisone shots is supposed to be bad for connective tissue.

That's what my actual Dr hand surgeon said. I'm getting an MRI in a few weeks, very very unlikely i have a full tear but I want to see if we can find something 'medium serious' that explains why I can't improve much with a year of PT.

Re: Why can't we just give steroids to people with muscular dystrophy?

#120

Post by LegitShady » Thu, Aug 26, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

dillondoyle wrote: post #119

LegitShady wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not a climber but I had a pulley injury that didn't really go away until I got cortisone to kill the inflammation it was causing. But repeated cortisone shots is supposed to be bad for connective tissue.

That's what my actual Dr hand surgeon said. I'm getting an MRI in a few weeks, very very unlikely i have a full tear but I want to see if we can find something 'medium serious' that explains why I can't improve much with a year of PT.

well i can tell you mine healed after cortisone and I managed to not need surgery. But no matter how much PT/exercise/stretching I did up until the cortisone, nothing helped.

Within a few months of cortisone it felt great and didn't have mobility issues (I had scar tissue buildup that was cuasing trigger finger too) and now a year and a bit later its 100% functional with no pain and full mobility/range.

worth a try.