Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#111

Post by vmception » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

jwmhjwmh wrote: post #105

sillysaurusx wrote: post #81

See Carmack's rebuttal: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1428483898896535562 > I have been impressed by the number of real world economic and business issues that Roblox is exposing my younger son to, both in the experiences and the larger ecosystem. There is a lot of thinking in terms of effort, reward, and risk. "You seem to be ignoring the thesis of the video. For the vast majority of their creators, their…

> If the most legendary game developer of all time thinks Roblox is fine, are you sure he's mistaken? Isn't this an argument from authority? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority Furthermore, the video made the argument that Roblox tries to mislead kids into thinking they can make money. In other words, an individual might be wrong in thinking the opportunities are worth investing time in due to the m…

An argument from authority isn't inherently a fallacy, as your own wikipedia article mentions.

But, like you, I do think it is inherently a flag that suggests other inputs are necessary. And that all opinions that solely reference the authority are equally lower weighted until additional inputs are found to match, or further negate.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#112

Post by vmception » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #20

duxup wrote: post #13

My son makes some games on Roblox and plays a lot. He has a great time, he's not chasing $, he just wants to have fun. It works great for that. As soon as you try to stand out and chase money, yeah it gets HARD. Just like streaming on YouTube... or just getting noticed online for your blog. But what's the alternative here? That's a question of scale. Just not let kids even have a chance to make money?

The main complaint is they encourage kids to create games by emphasizing the revenue sharing aspect, without making clear how hard it is to derive any revenue at all from it.

A common practice used to encourage adults too

Whether I dis/agree with the practice or not, I find a separate standard for children to be disingenuous if we are talking about a common practice

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#113

Post by majormajor » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

only_as_i_fall wrote: post #14

>Second, there’s the matter of how extensively Robux (Roblox’s in-app currency) are used to navigate the creator economy. Roblox creators are paid first by receiving a cut of Robux that comes from the sale, which they can use to purchase other Roblox experiences, in-game assets, cosmetics, etc. That means once a developer enters the Robux economy, their money is all spent inside the Roblox system until they’re able t…

The threshold to cash out seems high, but the percentage cut is curious, and I'm not convinced "exploitative" is the right word. It's a high cut, but is there anything else that makes it anywhere as close to make a game and share it with your friends? It seems to be in an entirely different league as any of the app stores or PC game development, so a higher cut there would make sense.

The "it's just for fun!" argument does cut both ways - then why introduce real money into the ecosystem at all? - but has an obvious "because real money is needed to make the product and ecosystem exist" answer. Is taking this much real money necessary? That seems like a much harder question. You could say it's a bit like college sports - playing a game with your friends and there's some institution that's taking all the money, and then, yes, if Roblox is rolling in huge profits and distributing a penance, they deserve some pressure on that.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#114

Post by cma » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #96

cma wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the most legendary game developer of all time thinks Roblox is fine, are you sure he's mistaken? FWIW, he's the CTO of a 30% app store trying to also break into the Roblox business (their Metaverse talk/Facebook Horizon). So rather than Roblox only taking 40% and giving 30% to Apple, Facebook will potentially be in position to take the full 70% (or more due to getting children to pay for ad spend) of the child l…

Carmack is a full time AI developer. He's working on AI in the most hardcore sense: aiming at full AGI. I've DM'ed with him for months about it. I was skeptical, and then his ideas turned out to be some of the most innovative I've seen. When Carmack tweets something, it's because he believes what he's saying is true. Searching for the most charitable interpretation of your argument, the only thing I can think of is "…

> Carmack is a full time AI developer.

He's still simultaneously the CTO of Facebook's Oculus division, which runs their 30% app store and is building the Roblox-aesthetic Facebook Horizon "metaverse":

https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Facebook-W...

https://roadtovrlive-5ea0.kxcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/...

He's separated out his AI work as his own thing.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#115

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #59

happyopossum wrote: post #18

My kids (and I) certainly don't see it as exploitation - they love learning to create games, and would be happy to do it even without any chance of payout. I don't think the $1k minimum payout is crazy either, as the overhead of paying 10s of thousands of kids $11.32 would kill margins (leading to Robux having to take a higher %age). I'd have to think most kids are in the same boat as mine - if their games ever earn…

It looks worse when that $1k becomes $350 because Roblox cashes out Robux at a 65% discount for itself after taking nearly 75% of every transaction.

[deleted]

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#116

Post by elliekelly » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #52

only_as_i_fall wrote: post #14

>Second, there’s the matter of how extensively Robux (Roblox’s in-app currency) are used to navigate the creator economy. Roblox creators are paid first by receiving a cut of Robux that comes from the sale, which they can use to purchase other Roblox experiences, in-game assets, cosmetics, etc. That means once a developer enters the Robux economy, their money is all spent inside the Roblox system until they’re able t…

> But to withdraw it, they need to have raked in roughly $1,000 worth of Robux. It's even worse than that. They sell robux at one rate and cash them out for developers at a very different rate. That $1,000 worth of Robux becomes $350 when you go to extract it. So they're taking cuts twice, once on the actual sale and again whenever you try to turn it into real money instead of their scrip.

> That $1,000 worth of Robux becomes $350 when you go to extract it.

Knowing nothing at all about Robux I’m not sure I follow. When you say “$1,000 worth of Robux” here you mean $1,000 USD, right? And not 1,000 units of Robux?

So if I’m a developer on the platform and I’ve earned however many Robux equal $1,000 USD and I initiate a transfer then my actual cash receipts will be ~$350 USD? Am I understanding that correctly? Because that seems nuts. Especially when they’re targeting kids as their primary “developers”.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#117

Post by sombremesa » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #102

tpush wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carmack being a prolific game developer doesn't mean that he has special insight into any other issue, like corporations economically exploiting children. He may have a point, but him being 'legendary' doesn't make his arguments any better (or worse).

I think him being a father gives him special insight into that issue. Most fathers are keenly aware when their children are being taken advantage of. Most parents on this HN thread seem to agree.

Quote from my friend, who is a mom:

> I'm honestly not a fan as a mom but it's a very fluid marketplace for games and gives people an opportunity to make their own video games and make money.

Given that this opportunity to make money scarcely exists in reality (it's equivalent to my opportunity to make money by starring in a Hollywood film as a random Seattle engineer), seems like parents don't really have a clue what's going on.

From my own experience from when I was a kid, it would seem to be true that parents don't have a clue what their children are actually exposed to on the internet, unless they take extreme and draconian measures.

Unfortunately, parents have a strong interest in protecting their image as that of a good parent, so it's rare for them to admit to not knowing such things.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#118

Post by testudovictoria » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #56

tyleo wrote: post #5

I read the article but have not watched the video so I may be missing some context. It really depends on how you define “exploiting”. It doesn’t seem like you _need_ to buy the ads. A kid could make a game on any platform and would encounter similar barriers. Would it be better if the kid played Call of Duty rather than creating something? Even if the chance to profit is low does the kid get something else out of Rob…

Roblox takes their 75% cut out of each sale then if you ever manage to accumulate the 100,000 Robux needed to cash out ($1000 worth for what Roblox sells it for) you only get $350. They're double dipping their cut. You should really watch the video it lays out the case very well. If it's meant to be educational it shouldn't be marketing itself as a way to make money or charging kids to promote their app. It would hav…

To combine the numbers:

Roblox takes 75% of each sale. This means the developer needs to make 400,000 in Robux sales before the developer accumulates 100,000 Robux for cash withdrawal.

If 100,000 Robux is sold for $1,000, and 100,000 Robux only nets the developer $350, then the double dip gives Roblox a net 91.25% of developer sales. This excludes any applicable taxes or app store fees.

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#119

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #73

rtkwe wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to withdraw it, they need to have raked in roughly $1,000 worth of Robux. It's even worse than that. They sell robux at one rate and cash them out for developers at a very different rate. That $1,000 worth of Robux becomes $350 when you go to extract it. So they're taking cuts twice, once on the actual sale and again whenever you try to turn it into real money instead of their scrip.

Can you transfer it? If so, seems like it would be hard to prevent secondary markets from forming.

[deleted]

Re: Roblox faces criticism for 'exploiting' young game developers

#120

Post by tyleo » Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

rtkwe wrote: post #56

tyleo wrote: post #5

I read the article but have not watched the video so I may be missing some context. It really depends on how you define “exploiting”. It doesn’t seem like you _need_ to buy the ads. A kid could make a game on any platform and would encounter similar barriers. Would it be better if the kid played Call of Duty rather than creating something? Even if the chance to profit is low does the kid get something else out of Rob…

Roblox takes their 75% cut out of each sale then if you ever manage to accumulate the 100,000 Robux needed to cash out ($1000 worth for what Roblox sells it for) you only get $350. They're double dipping their cut. You should really watch the video it lays out the case very well. If it's meant to be educational it shouldn't be marketing itself as a way to make money or charging kids to promote their app. It would hav…

I’ll have to watch the video. It looks like there is some missing context in the article alone.

Still not sure how I feel. On the fence but leaning more good than bad. The thing I cant get past is “what else would a kid do with their time?” Even if its not a great way to make money, it seems like a better use of time than what I did. It just seems like it still provides a strong learning opportunity.

I think there may be a different argument about whether it exploits developers generally and not just kids.