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Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#111

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

spijdar wrote: post #98
nielsbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how dish washers are more efficient than hand washing? Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub?

I haven't watched this video in a while so apologies if it's not specifically elaborated on, but I believe it's covered here: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04 From memory yes, it's partially about water usage, but dishwashers are in general just pretty good overall about efficiently using energy to maximize "food grime removed" per unit of resources fed in. Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I th…

>Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I think a decent dishwasher will beat you.

I once ran the dishwasher with the outlet hose in a bucket because the drain pump was on its way out. I expected to have to empty it several times, but at the end of the cycle there was less water in it than I would use to fill a washing-up bowl to do the dishes by hand (and the amount of dishes it cleaned might have required more than one bowl).

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#112

Post by nielsbot »

spijdar wrote: post #98
nielsbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how dish washers are more efficient than hand washing? Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub?

I haven't watched this video in a while so apologies if it's not specifically elaborated on, but I believe it's covered here: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04 From memory yes, it's partially about water usage, but dishwashers are in general just pretty good overall about efficiently using energy to maximize "food grime removed" per unit of resources fed in. Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I th…

Thanks. I read the treehugger link—pretty convincing overall. Not sure why my question was downvoted tho. (Not accusing you)

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#113

Post by hutzlibu »

function_seven wrote: post #44
IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

I get unreasonably angry when Victorian cosplayers think they've found the solution to our wasteful modern life. Simply eschew modern conveniences and spend hours each week beating your clothes against a rock! Simple , instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market down the block before dinner each night. Was it cloudy yesterday? Simple! , take a whore-bath¹ at…

"Simply eschew modern conveniences and spend hours each week beating your clothes against a rock"

My question is, if those people actually tried that by themself before suggesting it, or if they just picture the women doing it somewhere.

I mean in this specific instance I can imagine they tried. And I did too, while off grid. It gives you a special connection to your clothes. But suggesting this as a general way of life is a bit offworlds.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#114

Post by jaclaz »

monitron wrote: post #3

We're currently in the process of designing a house that we hope to build early next year. One thing that I dream of doing is lighting the entire house with LEDs wired in a low voltage DC "network." Even better if they're addressable, dimmable, even RGB recolorable. Power over Ethernet would be a pretty cool way of doing it if it was practical...that way you get the data to control the lights as well as the power to…

I wonder where the "requirement" for low voltage DC comes from.

At least here Europe/Italy there are bus-based systems from various manufacturers.

Example:

https://professionisti.bticino.it/catalogo-prodotti/myhome-i...

(not too bad in google translate)

Basically normal wires (here 220-250 V AC) Live+Neutral+Ground and a signal (bus) 2 wire cable arrive to each and every electrical box/light point.

Then you can install into the box any kind of device, switches, outlets, etc., and you can configure them.

The bus wires (the protocol is called SCS):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_SCS

allows also (low power) 27 V DC trasmission.

The protocol and compliant devices were first introduced between 1996 and 2000 and are by now well tested and reliable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWebNet

Legrand also uses the same protocol:

https://developer.legrand.com/documentation/open-web-net-for...

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#115

Post by hutzlibu »

nielsbot wrote: post #112
spijdar wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't watched this video in a while so apologies if it's not specifically elaborated on, but I believe it's covered here: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04 From memory yes, it's partially about water usage, but dishwashers are in general just pretty good overall about efficiently using energy to maximize "food grime removed" per unit of resources fed in. Even if you're careful with water usage while hand washing, I th…

Thanks. I read the treehugger link—pretty convincing overall. Not sure why my question was downvoted tho. (Not accusing you)

In my observation unfair downvotes come, when people are angry at something and looking at anything that looks like a scapegoat to direct that anger, which can be anyone not expressing the same mindset they have. Which was you by asking that question that apparently was enough to mentally puts you in the "stupid treehugger camp". I would not worry about it too much and try to not take it personal.

Their rational explanation is probably "how you can be so stupid for not knowing that common knowledge".

And well, even though I am indeed a treehugger, I also knew about the efficency of dishwashers before and also assumed it to be common knowledge, but I would never downvote someone because of a genuine question adding to the conversation.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#116

Post by dspillett »

function_seven wrote: post #44
IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

I get unreasonably angry when Victorian cosplayers think they've found the solution to our wasteful modern life. Simply eschew modern conveniences and spend hours each week beating your clothes against a rock! Simple , instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market down the block before dinner each night. Was it cloudy yesterday? Simple! , take a whore-bath¹ at…

> whore-bath at the sink / Or, “PTA", which isn't much nicer. Any ideas on what to call this that's less vulgar, but still derisive?

Not particularly derisive, but I've always called it a “pits & bits” wash. I've heard it called a “got lucky rinse” too, presumably a variant on the whore-bath.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#117

Post by Dagger2 »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #57
mdorazio wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other commenters here haven't really provided any good data to show the issue. If you want to run, say, 10A at 24V through DC wire on a circuit you end up needing stupidly thick wire (~6AWG) to avoid voltage drops over just 100ft. There are charts available to show you, for example [1]. If you're thinking of running normal hobby wire for 12V circuits around a house, the resistance losses are going to be huge. [1] htt…

What? 12AWG Romex is rated for 20A in normal residences in the US and it's already in a lot of homes, so the retrofit would be easy. And for LED lighting you wouldn't need nearly that much current at 24V, so voltage losses would be negligible.

"Rated for 20A" means that putting 20A through the cable will heat it to the maximum rated temperature, which is ~90C for that type of cable.

Heating all of your house wiring to 90C is a) dangerous, and b) expensive. Even if you're doing less than 20A, decreasing the voltage by a factor of 5 still increases energy loss in cabling by a factor of 25.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#118

Post by psiconaut »

pleb_nz wrote: post #97
tootie wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frequently much more energy intensive too. Cars are a lot more efficient than horses and dishwashers are more efficient than hand washing.

I read somewhere modern people spend the same amount of time doing chores as someone before electricity. It wouldn't surprise me if it were that far off the truth. We own so much more and are told we need things when in reality maybe we don't?

You might be referring to some of the studies associated with the "original affluent society" proposal. To think that all basic needs can be covered by a 3-5 hours of work a day is quite shocking for a judeo-christian that has been indoctrinated in the "work as a curse" tale.

For sure it all depends on how you define "basic needs", and how do you divide "work time" from "leisure time".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society#%22W...

At some moment I've heard of more recent studies about the myth of the increase in leisure time, but I don't manage to find any good reference now. In any case, I suspect Graeber had a point.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#119

Post by stjohnswarts »

pleb_nz wrote: post #97
tootie wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frequently much more energy intensive too. Cars are a lot more efficient than horses and dishwashers are more efficient than hand washing.

I read somewhere modern people spend the same amount of time doing chores as someone before electricity. It wouldn't surprise me if it were that far off the truth. We own so much more and are told we need things when in reality maybe we don't?

Trust me it's not true. I grew up poor and we did lots of things by hand that would take hours more per week than all the automated stuff of today lol. I'm not going back willingly...

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#120

Post by stjohnswarts »

emacsen wrote: post #88
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low Tech Magazine always writes like this. They always offer some idea which seems interesting on its surface but leaves gaps. They then end the article explaining away the gap with a moral polemic about how we need to change our ways and return to an older way of life. These days I just take the magazine for what it is; a medium containing interesting ideas but overall disingenuous and often impractical. (Though I d…

> Though I do think that Americans uses clothes dryers _much_ more than they should. There are many reasons for this. Some of them are cultural, and other are legal. Many Americans simply don't remember drying clothes on a clothes hanger outside, and aren't used to hanging them indoors as many Europeans do. And to be fair, indoor clothing hanging is time consuming in comparison to "transfer clothes from one machine t…

I can't do it because the mold spores and pollen would make life very miserable.
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