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Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

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Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#111

Post by adriancr »

mikaeluman wrote: post #76

The Biden administration doing this so haphazardly is irresponsible and with little to no reward - political or anything else. Moving away from US centric debates on the economic value of this war and attempt at governance; I fear Afghanistan will again become a breeding ground for Islamic terrorism atrocities and also put increased pressure on Europe in terms of migration. To the latter point, Europe is already on t…

> The Biden administration doing this so haphazardly is irresponsible and with little to no reward

The same was said about Bush administration when the war was started. The same was said about the whole 'nation building' and troop surge and so on that happened until now...

Judging by the lack of fighting back, nothing was achieved in 20 years and same thing would happen even if US stayed 20 more years...

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#112

Post by t0rt01se »

Very mixed feeling about this. The implications for minorities, women and progress are now obviously dire. Though I can't help feel somewhat pleased to see Dubya/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfo's legacy ground to dust and all their supporters/apologists with pie on their face. I couldn't believe Dubya prancing around like an elder statesman while Trump was in office. There's an element of their m.o. that has overflown from the military to other branches of US life as the military got less stretched in recent years. The mistakes made haven't been as educational as they should've been.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#113

Post by rualca »

BasDirks wrote: post #101
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

The US played a pivotal role in saving our asses over in Europe, and we are eternally grateful, but ever since, the US has been bad at war. It's not the firepower, it's not the soldiers, and it's not the organization. These are top notch. It's the **ing politicians dragging young men and women into wars not worth fighting.

I wholeheartedly agree, and the effect this has on the perceived military capability of the US in particular and NATO in general can't possibly be downplayed.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#114

Post by baybal2 »

captain_price7 wrote: post #44
yyyk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In these parts of the world, 'defecting to the winning side' is a basic survival skill. As soon as the US stopped its support it was obvious who'd win (the people still getting state support from Pakistan). So why should a smart faction fight and die? To make the people who aren't there anymore look better?

I think you're overestimating Pakistan's capability. It gave Taliban leaders shelter at their worst moment, and that is about the only leverage ISI had. The moment Taliban started to carve out territory inside Afghanistan, that leverage was gone. There's some gratitude, but also lots of resentment among Taliban leadership about the way they were treated by the Pakistani authority.

Yep, totally right. I think you need to also tell about Afghan government itself "returning Pakistan a favour," and dispatching the Pakistani Taliban.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#115

Post by chewz »

croes wrote: post #74

So will the Taliban stop the opium production again?

On the contrary. Taliban increased poppy fields by 50 percent in 2020 and they are also pushing meth through their channels. Taliban budget estimated at 2 bilion dollars is supported chiefly by opium trade...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/07/19/taliban-expanding-drug-...

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#116

Post by koonsolo »

BasDirks wrote: post #101
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

The US played a pivotal role in saving our asses over in Europe, and we are eternally grateful, but ever since, the US has been bad at war. It's not the firepower, it's not the soldiers, and it's not the organization. These are top notch. It's the **ing politicians dragging young men and women into wars not worth fighting.

The Taliban is absolute horrible. US tried to do a good thing here. For me this is a failure of the Afghan people who are not willing to fight for their rights, especially the rights of their wives, sisters and daughters.

At least US tried to make a difference. EU is very passive in that sense (I'm from EU).

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#117

Post by smhost »

chewz wrote: post #109
NonContro wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US forces abandoned the country 'overnight' - leaving behind all of the military equipment the Taliban would need for their reconquest: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210814-weapon-seizur... Why wasn't all this equipment repatriated or destroyed? Why were the bases just abandoned without proper transition to Afghan Control, so that in some cases they were even looted by civilians? Possible explanations: 1. E…

You are too hard on US. Afgan Army had 300 thousand soldiers trained and well equiped. If Afgans do not want to fight Taliban themselves what US can do?

U.S. could have not cynically installed the most pliant pro-American corrupt thugs to be in charge and told the people to obey, after having destroyed their homeland and treated them like idiot children for an entire generation.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#118

Post by bArray »

reducesuffering wrote: post #99
bArray wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was told in January this year by many gleeful people they were so happy that "competence" was coming back into the US administration. I share your frustration - this withdrawal literally couldn't have been done worse. They were so ill prepared they left weapons for the Taliban to pick up, seemingly had zero plan for evacuation of their embassies and failed to tell allied embassies. A withdrawal was definitely on…

> Trump had zero involvement in their withdrawal planning. Trump had a deal signed with the Taliban, in which a withdrawal of half the troops was already initiated, funding was cut, and 5k Taliban prisoners were released. Immediately after that deal, Taliban went on a huge offense and the end was set in motion. Biden inherited a signed deal that had US completely withdrawn in May, and he even extended it to August. h…

Trump signed the deal, but he didn't plan the withdrawal. In six months, the best they could come up with is handing over military equipment to the Taliban?

> Biden inherited a signed deal that had US completely withdrawn in May, and he even extended it to August.

We can't in good faith argue that Biden had no power to modify, extend or even cancel the agreement. He did so with many of Trump's previous commitments for example.

In the Wikipedia article:

> [..] a full withdrawal within 14 months if the Taliban keeps its commitments.

And then later:

> Despite the peace agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban, insurgent attacks against Afghan security forces were reported to have surged in the country.

Biden had every possibility to cancel the agreement.

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#119

Post by selfmodruntime »

BasDirks wrote: post #101
yalogin wrote: post #32

What a failure of the US armed forces here. 20 damn years staying in the country with the only 2 goal - to help Afghans build an army and help defend themselves and to eradicate the Taliban. They failed miserably in both. Trillions spent and many lost lives. Why would we ever pour money into such a terrible, incompetent system? Of course, the cycle keeps repeating itself and we keep growing the military.

The US played a pivotal role in saving our asses over in Europe, and we are eternally grateful, but ever since, the US has been bad at war. It's not the firepower, it's not the soldiers, and it's not the organization. These are top notch. It's the **ing politicians dragging young men and women into wars not worth fighting.

This is a very ironic comment considering that the soviets, not the US liberated Europe from Germany. They fought the hardest battles, lost the most soldiers, fought for the longer time and were first in Berlin.

The public just believes otherwise because of 70 years of US propaganda [1]. The only thing US soldiers left us europeans with are a massive influx of refugees of which we have to take care of and for which we are ridiculed by US politicians and their citizens alike.

[1]: https://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5814270/the-successful-70-year...

Re: Taliban enter Kabul as Afghan government on brink of collapse

#120

Post by selfmodruntime »

throwawaysea wrote: post #49
sneak wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s more a failure of the people who sent them there than the forces themselves. This is a management issue. For all of the failings of the current US president, getting the hell out of an endless, unnecessary war is a good thing.

I disagree that getting out is a good thing. It means a terrorist organization will control a nation and harbor terrorists once again in the future (remember the same Taliban sheltered 9/11 terrorists and is still allied with al Qaeda!). It means we lose a foothold in the region, militarily and economically. It means rivals like China expand their influence and force projection at our expense, since they plan to reco…

> a terrorist organization will control a nation

those are the terrorists the US created by mercilessly bombing their civilian relatives.

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