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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#111

Post by [deleted] »

jdp23 wrote: post #103
michaelchisari wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it just takes one or two to complete ruin an environment People seem to forget this. All it takes it the complacency of most men to let those one or two blowhards create a hostile environment.

That's a great point. The HN community's a great microcosm. There are a few sexist jerks, and a number of guys who routinely defend sexist jerks. Of course there are also plenty of guys who speak out about sexism, and then there's what seems like the the vast majority: guys who would rather not talk about it. The net result, my women friends tell me, is that the overall feel is hostile to women.

[deleted]

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#112

Post by cheez »

dpark wrote: post #109
cheez wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)

The guy I was replying to said:

> Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle.

I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#113

Post by almightygod »

cheez wrote: post #98

I was at a tech meetup a couple of weeks back and I walked in to see a lot of women. It was really refreshing. Fast-forward a little bit and you can hear guys snickering when the women went up. I don't understand it but I fucking hate it. My sister is great at her job (IT project management) and my daughter loves programming. I can't wait for her to show some guy how to do the job. Some of the women made the best pre…

Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a typical male response.

Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking? Correlation does not always mean causation.

I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their sex.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#114

Post by agentultra »

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

It's not that "women just don't like tech, so what?"

It's more likely that they learn not to like it from an early age due to sexist gender stereotyping.

http://www.7wonderlicious.com/2/post/2010/12/girls-stem-and-...

One of the most disgusting things I read when this conversation comes up are the remarks and arguments from the apologists. Their common thread is that "we shouldn't be offended." It's a completely asinine position to take and any reason they offer for why is equally laughable. The problem is that as these ideas persist, they reinforce gender stereotypes and contribute to the aforementioned problem of young girls having to choose between being stereotypical girls (and thus accepting all the baggage that entails) or being smart (and accepting all the baggage that entails).

Such a choice is a hard one to make. That it persists is one of the great injustices of the world that women suffer. And the great tradgedy is that ignorant male assholes who want to avoid being pegged as a sexist ignoramus will argue blindly that women are equal, that it's okay to objectify them, that everyone should relax, that maybe women just don't like tech otherwise there would be more of them in it.

Wake up.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#116

Post by solipsist »

ryandvm wrote: post #78
solipsist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

  Why aren't we just as concerned
  that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?
CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#117

Post by solipsist »

ryandvm wrote: post #78
solipsist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

  Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female
CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#118

Post by solipsist »

ryandvm wrote: post #78
solipsist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

  Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female
CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#119

Post by rmrm »

I'm guessing a lot of people haven't worked in other industries. Like on a mfg floor, or at a lumber mill, or on a fishing boat. Or as part of a custodial staff.

The sexist creep ratio in the SW industry is lower than most. The SW Industry appears much more sensitive to the issue, however.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#120

Post by pickeju »

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

>"What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming?"

Because a greater diversity of life experience leads to better design, usability, and implementation. Women are users, too, and when women devs have input into interfaces intended to be used by women, the product can be much better for it. Obviously there are other ways to incorporate women, children, the elderly with user acceptance testing and usability reviews, but why wouldn't you want that kind of diversity and insight on your team?

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