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The Problem with Ethereum

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111–120 of 321 posts

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#111

That this gets upvoted to #2 speaks poorly of HN. Why on earth are we still talking about the DAO? This is a collection of tired, irrelevant arguments that entirely ignores product-market fit and a large, vibrant community of developers. [edit] ah, of course. a bitcoin maximalist. how dare there be an alternative use-case for crypto that involves people using it. the thing bitcoin has going for it is a large communit…

That is just an emotionalistic assertion. You aren't interacting with the actual content of the article.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, humans or not, in any given system, there will be people in position to analyze and take advantage of subtle / indirect / emergent effect of that system. Be it better brains, more funding to try strategies, it will happen.

Is that a bad thing? Maybe that's how systems become more efficient.

Depends on which side you're on. The big smart may again take advantage of the rest.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#113
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's funny that this appeared today. i've recently been musing about whether or not a technical and political migration of the bitcoin ecosystem from proof of work to a consensus model that simulates the proof of work economy in a clean way, complete with a socio-economic solution that does not leave miners and their associated/secondary economy out in the cold, could be an idealized model for migrating the global ec…

There are a number of articles claiming various percentages of Bitcoin mining from renewables, but this is probably the most balanced quote: "Commonly cited estimates range from 39% to 73% renewable energy. Jesse Morris, CEO of non-profit Energy Web says most estimates find 20% to 50% of bitcoin is powered by renewable energy, but all available numbers are based on self-reported data, which is unverifiable. 30 June 2…

as long as there are any dirty megawatts, any clean bitcoin mining energy could be replacing it, assuming it is physically close enough to existing electric power grids.

all bitcoin mines are is a proof of investment for the purposes of divvying up entries in a decentralized periodic lottery where the probability of winning is proportional to ones investment in equipment and energy.

is it really truly impossible to efficiently simulate this (specifically the economics, so that existing players don't revolt) while maintaining decentralization in the consensus algorithm?

it seems like there could be a technical solution, but the harder problem is building political consensus in a decentralized world... sort of like getting the global economy off of fossil fuels...

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#114

If something is hard in theory, it's 10x harder in implementation. Complex systems have a lot of 'unknown unknowns' that can't be forecasted. Ethereum is $300B+ live network so every small change takes time to research, test, and implement. Migrating from PoW to PoS is like swapping out the engine of an airplane in mid-air.

If you ask the cryptocurrency subreddit, the best thing to do with any money you have[1] is to buy ETH at any price and stake it (i.e. lock it in and receive interest until ETH 2.0 is released). I find that absolutely mindblowing given all the complexity you're pointing out + the fact that there is no date and no clear explanation of what happens to the funds in the event of failure. And on top of this the fact that most people are doing the staking through exchanges because they don't have the required 32 ETH to do it themselves, it looks like a giant disaster waiting to happen.

And somehow Ethereum is one of the most positively viewed cryptocurrencies out there. I don't get it.

[1] This is only a mild exaggeration.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#115
post #11

It takes a lot to build a community. The way that article portrays it ties more into an allegory. Let's not forget that every participant is there voluntarily, and if they are genuinely suffering, they will choose to move on. Ethereum is a powerful connecting force that brings trust within the internet.

> Ethereum is a powerful connecting force that brings trust within the internet. I've got a bridge to sell you when you're ready

Luckily I can afford the bridge having bought Ethereum years ago.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#116

There's plenty wrong with Ethereum, but casting miners as 'the working class' is a flawed analogy. The mercantile class would be closer to the mark. Notably, their hashing power is based in real world economic power and they extract an annuity from capital expenditure on mining operations and hardware. I also question whether miners are really providing the labour power, as you might expect the working class to do. T…

> There's plenty wrong with Ethereum, but casting miners as 'the working class' is a flawed analogy. Agreed. Marx's working class consists of those who do not own means of production, and are therefore compelled to sell their labour. Miners do not lack means of production; they operate expensive mining machinery. That machinery continues to run, and earn money for the miner, even while the miner sits on the beach. Se…

The two class cycles

workers cycle: Commodity(labor) -> Money -> Commodity(food, housing bills)

Capitalists cycle: Money -> Commodity(means of production) -> Money(profit/surplus value)

At least that is the bit that kind of sticked to me and made me realized in the west you want to do the second cycle. Earn money by selling labor, live life as a cheap ass for a while use savings to become a asshole landlord.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#117
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying you would like to purchase and use such a currency? Or would you like other people to purchase and use it?

No, I would like to mine it. Imagine: a network where the only gains you get are from spending your money quickly. The anti-hodl. It would be completely worthless as a store of value or investment vehicle. Its only conceivable use would be as a fast and efficient transaction ledger. Which is what I wanted out of blockchain to begin with! I'd be happy to support a network like that, even if my income was rapidly vanis…

Well, you are basically thinking of freicoin which is the oldest bitcoin fork.

It died because you cannot start with the currency. It has to be a local community project. There are lots of complementary currencies on this planet but only regional currencies end up successful.

Cryptocurrencies are problematic because they don't foster a face to face community. The idea is that you are taking advantage of a sucker 1000miles away from you.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#118
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(b) is why Bitcoin core development has stagnated[*]. And that's fine if people just want it to be like gold, however Ethereum doesn't aspire to not evolve. (c) I actually disagree with. Decentralized governance is a very interesting subject, and some cryptos like Tezos are governed quite decentralized in many ways. Right now I'm really confident in how Ethereum is governed, with the "old-fashioned" open-source devel…

> some cryptos like Tezos are governed quite decentralized in many ways. Whenever crypto enthusiasts tell me about DeFi governance, I get excited about the possibilities. Then, I actually take a look at some of the group decisions, and literally all of them are crypto/coin-related, and don’t deal with any /real/ or human problems…

I'd recommend looking at Project Catalyst out of the Cardano ecosystem.

Of course the proposals are still heavily focused on internal/ecosystem development but there's an increasing focus on building platforms for people in developing regions as well. There has generally been a heavy focus on improving connectivity and access to affordable financial services within the African continent however recently there's been slowly growing focus on other regions with large unbanked or under-banked populations.

With the amount of money that is allotted via the treasury for the Cardano ecosystem, Catalyst (and eventually proper on-chain governance when it evolves into that) has funding to comfortably run it's 6 week cadence funding rounds indefinitely at a rate of 15 million USD per round once it finished scaling up. As the network grows the scale will likely increase but regardless I think with the focuses the community has (particularly thanks to West Africa Decentralised Alliance) we'll see increasing focus on improving infrastructure and access in developing regions.

And while you could argue that many of the solutions proposed have some net positive effect flowing back to the ecosystem, generally the focus has been on connecting people rather than driving traffic to the network.

---

Sorry if that got a little long winded. It's a cool project+community and we've been working really hard to avoid the toxic coin maximalist & self-centred behaviour that's become so incredibly common in the space.

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#119
post #22

That this gets upvoted to #2 speaks poorly of HN. Why on earth are we still talking about the DAO? This is a collection of tired, irrelevant arguments that entirely ignores product-market fit and a large, vibrant community of developers. [edit] ah, of course. a bitcoin maximalist. how dare there be an alternative use-case for crypto that involves people using it. the thing bitcoin has going for it is a large communit…

Uhmm.. what product market fit? And why is proof of steak good?

$100B+ invested across hundreds of decentralized apps, with exponential user growth, is absolutely product market fit - https://defillama.com/chains

Re: The Problem with Ethereum

#120
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a little more to the argument: > This time the working class has their pay reduced from 4 Eth to 3 Eth per block, a 25% pay cut. Miners now earn 40% less per block than at the time of the community’s constitution, which promised that code was law, and which the ruling class later said they would break only once, for what was an especially good reason. But the code is law promise has now been broken so many ti…

The way that's written like Ethereum owes the miners a job strange. Ethereum isn't a work program for miners to manage mining hardware. Ethereum functions on proof-of-work and needs some people to sell their compute time and electricity. Miners aren't doing a generous service that would be useful outside of Ethereum that should be encouraged any further than Ethereum's specific needs. With PoS, the pay for miners is…

> The way that's written like Ethereum owes the miners a job strange

I think it's fair that if you've purchased specialized mining equipment, you expect the ROI you were promised. Doesn't seem strange.

> Ethereum functions on proof-of-work and needs some people to sell their compute time and electricity

So compensation for work. If not 'workers', you could call them 'investors', or perhaps 'sole traders', or 'merchants', not sure what the best analogy would be. To be fair, I don't necessarily put them in the same class as people making socks in a sweat shop on slave wage. The down-trodden Ethereum miner is not someone I lose sleep about.

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