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10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

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Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#111

Post by cmrdporcupine »

jollybean wrote: post #110
orwin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so you take belgium "as a failed state", and the "Quebec factor", while ignoring, let's say... Switzerland? > If you look at the borders of Europe and how they flop around over time, it becomes clear that the 'delineating' factor is mostly ethnicity, at least crudely. No. I don't know why you would think that. Brittany was Gallo-Breton, and the two ethnicity almost cut the duchy in two. Two very, very different l…

This line of reasoning of 'finding examples where ethnicity fails to provide the boundary distinction' doesn't make your case. I know about 'Switzlerand', thanks. Which is why I brought up USA/Australia/Brazil etc.. Nobody is going to argue that there are many factors that drive boundaries (aka natural boundaries) merely highlighting some counter examples doesn't deconstruct the fact that ethnicity is the primary mar…

It's a bit precious to point to the Greek borders and say "look, there's Greece" when you're pointing to a territory in which a half million people were forcibly expelled based on ethnonationalist politics and ideology, only 100 years ago.

Likewise to "French ethnicity", a place where government policy is still actively engaged in destroying minority languages (and their cultures) and has been since Napoleon.

These "ethnic" borders you're pointing to are as much a product of political maneuverings using ethnicity as a platform, as they are any kind of "natural" product of ethnicity.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#112

Post by cannabis_sam »

cannabis_sam wrote: post #97
neonnoodle wrote: post #12

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

[flagged]

(The sad dumbfucks downvoting this shit is clearly from a hatefull breed lol, fuck em and their hate-based ideology!)

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#113

Post by cannabis_sam »

haasted wrote: post #27

Anyone know what Norway will do when Breivik's 21 year prison sentence [0] is up in 10-12 years? Difficult to imagine him being released back into society. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Anders_Behring_Breivi...

He will be considered a threat to society, and kept locked up for another 5 years.. rinse and repeat

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#114

Post by foolinaround »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #100
foolinaround wrote: post #71

When ideologies are suppressed, they get pushed to the edges, where there is always some scum of society, who are disaffected and will latch on to it. The best way is to identify the roots behind what attracts the followers of these ideologies, address any root issues, and attack the premises behind the ideologies itself. Not talking to these incidents, but all over the world, people tend to violence when they feel t…

So what should the "system" have "heard" in this case? "I don't want Muslims in 'my' country" ? What's the root issue that needs addressing here?

> what should the "system" have "heard" in this case?

I have no dog in this fight, don't know much to be prescriptive of solutions for this case.

A generic statement I made which holds true as such, is being downvoted.

Just because I make this case, does not mean I know the solutions?

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#115

Post by foolinaround »

ceejayoz wrote: post #95
foolinaround wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just state your point explicitly? As a thought experiment, do you think there would be so many casualities if this island was located in Texas, USA where socialists/labor party is also not very popular?

Very possibly. Even in Texas, a bunch of kids on a youth camping retreat probably aren't heavily armed and ready to do battle. The element of surprise helps, too. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shoo... (it is probably a safe assumption that a Baptist church in a small town in Texas had at least a couple armed congregants)

The logical statement is that more the good guys have guns, the lesser chance the bad guys have to inflict damage.

It would be great to have no bad guys, but they will always exist, and will not follow the laws no matter what.

Laws should be written to enable good guys to protect themselves.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#116

Post by orwin »

jollybean wrote: post #110
orwin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so you take belgium "as a failed state", and the "Quebec factor", while ignoring, let's say... Switzerland? > If you look at the borders of Europe and how they flop around over time, it becomes clear that the 'delineating' factor is mostly ethnicity, at least crudely. No. I don't know why you would think that. Brittany was Gallo-Breton, and the two ethnicity almost cut the duchy in two. Two very, very different l…

This line of reasoning of 'finding examples where ethnicity fails to provide the boundary distinction' doesn't make your case. I know about 'Switzlerand', thanks. Which is why I brought up USA/Australia/Brazil etc.. Nobody is going to argue that there are many factors that drive boundaries (aka natural boundaries) merely highlighting some counter examples doesn't deconstruct the fact that ethnicity is the primary mar…

Again, dismissing my points. What about Britanny (breton and Gallo, see my previous post)? What about the Basque country? What about Alsace? What about Savoy then, if it was "mostly a political organization" (that created modern Italy by the way)? What about Occitanie? and Catalonia (Roussillon mostly)? Aquitaine? Do we talk about northern France then, since we saw pretty much All the south is NOT French? Is Normandy French? Culturally? When the original normand had so many word from the danes, and even the name tell us where they come from (NOR-mand)? Picardia (from Baie de Somme to liege basically), do you consider it French? Because i'm pretty sure, it use to be way closer to the lowlands than France, culturally (when the Duchy of Artois existed, at least).

I only know one contry well, mine, and a bit of northern Italy (i'm a 1750-1911 history nerd).

So now i'm gonna dissect northern Italy: you can count Liguria (closer to Occitan than Rome), as well as Piedmont ethnicity (but since the Duchy of Savoy is mostly political, i guess it doesn't exist... Ho, wait, did this duchy not inherit Sardinia from the pope and the Hasburg and form the kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont? I guess it was based on ethnicity then.) Do you think Venitians where closer to Roman (or i guess Piedmont) than they were to Dalmatians before the 18th century? I am sure it wasn't the case.

You map of Rome is funny. Here is what i found [0]. This is obviously not following ethnic divisions. Unless the basques moved during the time period, but i'm certain they did not.

[0]https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/266.png?v=162592...

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#117

Post by ashtonkem »

lordleft wrote: post #55
sinyug wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hindu Nationalism now rules over India and they aren't going anywhere. Then why are Hindus being threatened and murdered every day for being Hindus? How can Hindu monks be casually lynched in the presence of police personnel?[1] Why were those who voted for the BJP during the Bengal elections forced to flee their homes?[2] And why are the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits who were systematically driven out…

Typical logical fallacy -- crimes and atrocities can be committed against Hindus and Hindutva can remain a noxious force in the subcontinent.

“Bad things happened to us, therefore we’re justified” is a core argument for a lot of nationalist movements.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#118

Post by [deleted] »

rvz wrote: post #93
tomjen3 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I don't see any widespread nazi ideology. I see people open disagree with the left and some of its goals but that is, and I hope you agree, not the same thing.

> I don't see any widespread nazi ideology Perhaps they have played too much Wolfenstein VR to come to that conclusion of seeing Nazis everywhere or some sort of hidden agenda of a secret Nazi invasion from space. SlateStarCodex (A HN favourite) put it more accurately about the media (and social media) during the recent events in 2017 and still to this day: "I also think events proved me right in saying that the medi…

[deleted]

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#119

Post by ceejayoz »

foolinaround wrote: post #115
ceejayoz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very possibly. Even in Texas, a bunch of kids on a youth camping retreat probably aren't heavily armed and ready to do battle. The element of surprise helps, too. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shoo... (it is probably a safe assumption that a Baptist church in a small town in Texas had at least a couple armed congregants)

The logical statement is that more the good guys have guns, the lesser chance the bad guys have to inflict damage. It would be great to have no bad guys, but they will always exist, and will not follow the laws no matter what. Laws should be written to enable good guys to protect themselves.

> The logical statement is that more the good guys have guns, the lesser chance the bad guys have to inflict damage.

I don't find this as logical as you do, I think.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#120

Post by dang »

ksaua wrote: post #2

Here's the page in English: https://www.vg.no/spesial/2021/22-juli/english/

Changed from https://www.vg.no/spesial/2021/22-juli/. Thanks!

Submitters: We have deep respect for other languages, but this is an English language site so please submit articles in English. It's hard enough to get readers to read the articles even when they are...

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