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First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

mpg.de

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Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? It's not a declaration, but a hypothesis that attempts to explain the observations according to prior knowledge. It "will now be investigated in more detail" to try and disprove it. That's bog standard scientific work. What's hasty is the easy dismissal of the opinion of experts on a subject most commenters here are probably unfamlia…

Science is a process. HN isn't anti-science. The scientific establishment is a group of people in various organizational structures and alliances. I'm part of that establishment, and I can say that it lies, exaggerates, and has become increasingly untrustworthy in the past decade or two: - The easiest way to get ahead in the scientific establishment is to fabricate politically-motivated results. - Competition is inte…

Can you please show me where in my comment above I say that "science is "opinion of experts"?

If I haven't said that in my comment, would you say I'm obliged to reply to your comment and explain why I'm not, in fact, "doing it wrong"?

Do you agree that when having a conversation one should reply to what one's interlocutor has actually said, and not what one thinks has been said?

>> Science isn't about authority or expertise. It's about evidence, critical thinking, and the scientific process.

I disagree. "Science" means knowledge. What we call science is a process, like you say, but it is the process of accumulating and organising the collective knowledge of our civilisation. "Evidence, critical thinking and the scientific process" are not the essence of science, but tools to acquire knowledge, and this knowledge is the essence of science.

The people who have deep knowledge of a subject of scientific inquiry, we call "experts". At least I do and that's what I mean by "expert" in my comment above. To become an expert -to acquire deep knowledge in a subject- takes long years of study and familiarity with the work of other experts. "Evidence, critical thinking, and the scientific process" don't make anyone an expert. Hard work and applying oneself to the task of learning is what does.

Yet, what I see on HN, time and again, is that it is the opinions of non-experts that are supported by the majority of users. I say that because every time I see a post like the one above, where some researchers announce the results of their work, someone will always, always, jump in and dismiss the work of the researchers, and that someone usually has no idea what they're talking about, has spent a minimal amount of time thinking about or learning about what they're talking about, and their comment will rise to the top of the conversation, like a flag waving in the wind proclaiming "we do not care what you know, we can do better with a quick google and some bungled logic". That such comments rise to the top of conversations means that they are the ones most other users agree with.

This, the preponderance of inexpert opinion found as the first comment in posts about researchers' work, dismissing the researchers' work and supported by a majority of HN readers, is what I think of as "anti-science".

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#112
post #13

> "Whether this behavior is due to competition for food or to the decline of the rainforest's productivity caused by climate change will now be investigated in more detail." Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? These are complex social animals. Given this is the only attack ever observed, it seems possible to me that there are a myriad of plausible one-off explanations. Pe…

>> Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? It's not a declaration, but a hypothesis that attempts to explain the observations according to prior knowledge. It "will now be investigated in more detail" to try and disprove it. That's bog standard scientific work. What's hasty is the easy dismissal of the opinion of experts on a subject most commenters here are probably unfamlia…

[deleted]

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#113
post #13

> "Whether this behavior is due to competition for food or to the decline of the rainforest's productivity caused by climate change will now be investigated in more detail." Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? These are complex social animals. Given this is the only attack ever observed, it seems possible to me that there are a myriad of plausible one-off explanations. Pe…

>> Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? It's not a declaration, but a hypothesis that attempts to explain the observations according to prior knowledge. It "will now be investigated in more detail" to try and disprove it. That's bog standard scientific work. What's hasty is the easy dismissal of the opinion of experts on a subject most commenters here are probably unfamlia…

You confuse the "opinion of experts" with the scientific process.

A hypothesis is just a statement to be tested against reality. We don't automatically have to assume it is true. It is literally someones untested opinion.

All that matters in science is the truth about the underlying reality, i.e. the experiments that verify the hypothesis.

You are angry that people aren't somehow placing this hypothesis on a pedestal by mere appeal to authority. But science doesn't work like that, that's academia.

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#114
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you're trying to combat the anti-science shallow/kneejerk critiques, but this is not the way. You're feeding trolls by the handful. Here, you're jumping to conclusions just to dunk on somebody. Please pick your battles more carefully so you can be more deliberate as you wage them.

But its true? This research organization doesn't have to beg for short-term or 3rd party research money? Also, I'm really pissed and also I'm kind of convinced that its too late anyways to try to convince someone who says stuff like that that they're not right. The only thing that can still be done is trying to keep more people from getting sucked into that black hole. The best way to do this seems to be to de-platfo…

> Also, I'm really pissed and also I'm kind of convinced that its too late anyways to try to convince someone who says stuff like that that they're not right.

Look, I'm not arguing with you here. You're admittedly pissed. Please take a breather. This approach can only bolster confirmation bias for folks who think that science is just another religion with fanatical adherents.

There's a lot of writing about (including several studies) how to talk to people with extreme / conspiratorial / fact-resistant beliefs. Please read up.

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#115
post #36

For videos scroll to the bottom of this page https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-93829-x

It took me much longer than it really should've to find these videos [0]. Guess I need my morning coffee...

[0]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-93829-x#Sec10

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#116
post #13

> "Whether this behavior is due to competition for food or to the decline of the rainforest's productivity caused by climate change will now be investigated in more detail." Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? These are complex social animals. Given this is the only attack ever observed, it seems possible to me that there are a myriad of plausible one-off explanations. Pe…

Is there any evidence of decline of this forest's productivity?

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are videos https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-93829-x

"At 13:15, Chenge followed by an adult female, Roxy, climbed up the tree. Roxy moved toward Greta and took the body. She then began to consume the hands and internal organs of the gorilla infant. Between 13:16 and 14:00, Roxy allowed Chenge, Littlegrey, Onome, Orian, and Queliba to access small amounts of meat, no begging behaviour was observed between individuals. A final gorilla chest beat was heard at 13:46 in a N…

They are nasty but not as much as Dolphins...

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160204-cute-and-cuddly-dolp...

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two are connected. Scientists lying about climate change, especially in obvious contexts like this one, makes people see that scientists are not to be trusted. It's the boy who cried wolf.

Except you're the one who's lying ...? Weird.

Can you please point to where I'm lying?

NY Times has been running a series of articles blaming every fire and extreme weather event on climate change. This does two things:

1. Convinces liberals of the coming apocalypse of climate change, since it aligns with their views.

2. Convinces conservatives that the climate change folks are lying, since there are several logical steps missing, and it doesn't align with their views.

I'm sure some of those events are related to climate change. I'm sure some aren't. I don't think we really know which is which.

The problem with using (transparently) bad logic to get to a correct conclusion is that people no longer trust you.

If you look at conservative media, they point to (now obviously wrong) predictions from the eighties, where citations and reporting would go to the most extreme predictions.

It's really hard to convince someone of something after they've been lied to multiple times.

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#119
post #13

> "Whether this behavior is due to competition for food or to the decline of the rainforest's productivity caused by climate change will now be investigated in more detail." Declaring the cause must be food competition or climate change seems a bit hasty? These are complex social animals. Given this is the only attack ever observed, it seems possible to me that there are a myriad of plausible one-off explanations. Pe…

> The increased food competition may also be caused by the more recent phenomenon of climate change and a collapse in fruit availability as observed in other tropical forests in Gabon.

It seems like an educated guess.

Re: First lethal attacks by chimpanzees on gorillas observed

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is a process. HN isn't anti-science. The scientific establishment is a group of people in various organizational structures and alliances. I'm part of that establishment, and I can say that it lies, exaggerates, and has become increasingly untrustworthy in the past decade or two: - The easiest way to get ahead in the scientific establishment is to fabricate politically-motivated results. - Competition is inte…

Can you please show me where in my comment above I say that "science is "opinion of experts"? If I haven't said that in my comment, would you say I'm obliged to reply to your comment and explain why I'm not, in fact, "doing it wrong"? Do you agree that when having a conversation one should reply to what one's interlocutor has actually said, and not what one thinks has been said? >> Science isn't about authority or ex…

> Can you please show me where in my comment above I say that "science is "opinion of experts"?

Right here: "What's hasty is the easy dismissal of the *opinion of experts* on a subject ... When did HN become so anti-science?"

> The people who have deep knowledge of a subject of scientific inquiry, we call "experts".

Those "experts" said that Jews, Slavs, and African Americans were stupid and inferior to Anglo-Saxons, and ought to be enslaved or killed. Science is not a blind deference to "experts."

> Hard work and applying oneself to the task of learning is what does.

I have not found this to be the case. The harder work required is combing through evidence. People who apply hard work to learning generally come out as ideologues who can regurgitate opinions, from similar ideologues who came before. The way to become an expert involves looking at primary sources and understanding the evidence which went into a conclusion. In my domain, it involves working through a lot of math too.

A lot of the scientific establishment is a game of telephone where Bob cites Sue who cites Jill who cites Jim, and by the time you get to the end, there is no trace of evidence left. Good science involves recognizing when that's the case.

> This, the preponderance of inexpert opinion found as the first comment in posts about researchers' work, dismissing the researchers' work and supported by a majority of HN readers, is what I think of as "anti-science".

Then you're wrong in your thinking. This is anti-scientific-establishment.

I am a recognized "expert" in one domain of research. That's why I am anti-scientific-establishment. I see how the sausage gets made. I am pro-science.

I think the scientific establishment would benefit from more diversity -- in all dimensions (liberals talk about race and socioeconomics, conservatives about ideology, and no one talks about culture), more transparency, broader engagement, and more, to be blunt, audits to make sure people didn't fabricate results.

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