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Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#111

Post by jeppesen-io »

duskwuff wrote: post #56
prepend wrote: post #12

This is frustrating. FTP is really handy for distributing some files and there are lots of servers in place that now Firefox users can’t access. One can argue that servers should upgrade, and that’s valid. But they don’t and they likely won’t do this just harms Firefox’s user base and is one more reason I no longer recommend Firefox. They just don’t seem user friendly as they once were. I would expect Mozilla to advo…

> there are lots of [FTP] servers in place... Define "lots". Chrome dropped FTP support in late 2020 and basically nobody noticed. The vast majority of the remaining public FTP servers are also accessible over HTTP. > I would expect Mozilla to advocate for more FTP as a cheap way of distributing files. In what sense is FTP "cheap"? What makes it any different from HTTP in that regard?

That's funny - I did't notice myself. No idea it was removed

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#112

Post by handrous »

acdha wrote: post #75
sschueller wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So good luck configuring your firewall or NAS that don't have a valid certificate.

Seems like a great opportunity to secure your server rather than training humans to ignore security warnings, doesn't it?

There are lots of perfectly good (well, suited to their purpose, anyway) appliances (as in: pieces of hardware that cost money) out there that have web interfaces that don't speak 100% valid https. In part, this is because achieving fully-valid https on a machine on a local network, without a static domain name, with a machine & network config that you (the vendor) don't fully control, potentially without an Internet connection, and without installing root certs on client devices is, to put it mildly, inconvenient, and used to be even worse.

Getting rid of http or insecure-https support completely would render either them, or your browser, useless, and require that one or the other be replaced.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#114

Post by desktopninja »

handrous wrote: post #21
ferdowsi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox removing support for non-encrypted data protocols makes me more confident in them, so consider me a fan of this messaging.

ftps exists. The solution to http wasn't getting rid of it, it was pushing for more https. I'm not saying there weren't good reasons to get rid of ftp support, but that doesn't seem like one.

Surprising how many people don't know about ftps. FTP with SSL.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#115

Post by dmux »

daxuak wrote: post #51

FTP might be dying in other sectors, but at least in biomed research, I would use FTP anyday when the alternative protocol needs a client app and a bunch of configurations. It's also handy when sharing data. Browser support is important here because those files are often not explored from command line etc, but rather the FTP links are placed on individual pages as a quick download. At least for me, it's much more con…

FTP is still heavily used in the energy industry too. We upload an enormous amount of minute-by-minute meter data at work via FTP to various energy providers.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#116

Post by r00fus »

Jach wrote: post #88
r00fus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as code connects to other code, it will need to be updated whenever the other code is updated. Maintenance-free code is a chimera.

Maintenance-free code exists. I'm sorry you haven't experienced work at an org that has 10+ year old code which hasn't changed at all, easily verified by source control. (Has Mozilla published something anywhere about exactly how much work it is to keep FTP support around?) And while not technically 100% free, something closely related that's basically free is lots of 10+ year old code which does need to change somet…

Small code segments may indeed be maintenance free.

If a large codebase that interacts with any other system/code (either through usage of shared libraries, network connection or a common file format) has not changed, that means there's likely technical debt that hans't been addressed (or needed to address).

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#117

Post by TheRealPomax »

tyingq wrote: post #73
acabal wrote: post #36

I don't understand all the negativity around this. People complained when Firefox added Pocket, in part because they took a browser extension and made it a feature that was ostensibly unrelated to web browsing. Now they're taking an old feature that's definitely not related to web browsing and removing it, and people are still complaining? Firefox can't be everything. It should focus on being a great browser and not…

It's old, but "ftp://" is a valid uri scheme that has established use, and lots of valid links on existing, live web pages. Browsers removing support are breaking part of the web that was working fine.

No, they're breaking with accessing a part of the internet that web browsers used to support, an no one does anymore. They are most certainly not break the web itself. These are different things: if you need FTP (and let's be real: you don't), then as a user you still have TONS of options available to you, and as a host even legacy systems using ancient versions of Apache can already serve file listings as standard web pages. Just turn that on.

Your web browser doesn't need to support FTP. It just needs to support the web. Everything else is a bonus, unless it's a security liability. Then it has no business being in there.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#118

Post by mmastrac »

dmux wrote: post #80
mmastrac wrote: post #41

Mozilla is the last organization keeping us from the complete takeover of the web by Google/Webkit and they seem to be held to an impossibly high standard by users. There's no FTP support in Chrome, there's terrible support for Adblock, there's telemetry, etc, but somehow Mozilla has to be 100% perfect. This is why we can't have nice things and why the internet is going to become Chrome-first.

Perfect? No. Living up to the expectations and principles [0] that they themselves established? Yes. [0] Principle 6: The effectiveness of the internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/

Why is FTP all of a sudden an important interop protocol when we have HTTP, HTTPS, rsync, scp, etc? Why is the browser responsible for maintaining this legacy FTP support when there are command-line utilities and dedicated GUI clients for it?

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#119

Post by tablespoon »

acabal wrote: post #93
jacquesm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because pocket was a useless addition and dropping ftp:/ support breaks approximately 150 million valid links.

Browsers opening an ftp:// link can simply prompt to open it in a different program, much like they did PDFs in the past. (I also don't think a browser should have to be a great PDF renderer, but here we are.)

> Browsers opening an ftp:// link can simply prompt to open it in a different program, much like they did PDFs in the past. (I also don't think a browser should have to be a great PDF renderer, but here we are.)

Except then you have to find, install, and configure that program, which not everybody may be able or willing to do. We have trust browsers, for better or worse, and many people may not be comfortable identifying another trustworthy program to handle FTP downloads (due to malware/adware concerns), especially when they're trying to do something else. Having something in the browser saves users a trust decision.

Also, this feature has been so established that lots of stuff was designed expecting it to work that will now be broken. I also wouldn't be surprised if some FTP sites (say with old drivers) just get taken offline without being migrated, due to this.

Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90

#120

Post by duskwuff »

ipaddr wrote: post #94
cpach wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the use-case for FTP in 2021?

Moving files between servers. Same as yesterday, same as tomorrow.

And Firefox didn't even do that. It never included full FTP client functionality; it only supported directory listings and downloads.
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