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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

livingafi.com

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Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#111

Post by eloisius »

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

Wow, this post is an incredible example of gut-wrenching honesty about things working out differently than expected. I'm eight months into life without work right now, and can relate to a lot of this. I didn't make a plan to retire (early or otherwise), I just wanted to move abroad and take time to learn the language and think a little about what I want out of life aside from career.

I can relate to the anxiety and ennui they experienced in 2018. Something good about being in the rat race is that even during bad days you don't feel adrift or wasteful. During the first couple of months after I quit working, and after moving abroad, I hadn't yet enrolled in full-time language classes. At first it was easy to enjoy myself meeting new people, going rock climbing, traveling a bit, going on dates, etc. But after a while, I started noticing that if I woke up at 11am and didn't have "something to do," i.e. a plan, I started feeling a very strong sense of unease, something like a very mild sense of panic or alarm. Like here I am with no work to eat up my day, plenty of money, nothing but free time. If I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, or just don't feel like I'm enjoying myself, I am utterly wasting my precious time on Earth. That's a pretty dark chasm lurking just beneath the surface. If I'm having a bad day but can still pour a cup of coffee and go to work, I'm at least banking up money for some future day that I can enjoy it.

I feel like he was a little unfair in how he characterized his partner's experience of that ennui, although I don't blame him for feeling bitter after an affair. I've never wanted to keep up with the Joneses or spend my life jockeying for status, but I still don't think I'd feel okay permanently quitting work this young. There's more existential dread in being immediately responsible for enjoying every single day to the fullest than I'm ready to face.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#112

Post by someelephant »

kerkeslager wrote: post #90
someelephant wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like an update on his back issues. Back issues are often the result of people not dealing with stress in their life. Speaking from personal experience and a huge army of others who have had a similar experience (John Sarno crew).

While you may be correct in the general case, there's a much more obvious cause than stress in his case: Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome.

Yeah good point

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#113

Post by mberning »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #36
SavantIdiot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This follow up is way more compelling because it deals with the reality. I'm jealous of the authors communication skills and their partner's: there are some very hard statements in there about feeling worthless and falling behind because of no job. I wonder of those words were spoken calmly, or shouted through tears. Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ TL;DR: He has to…

> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this. > [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing. > [article au…

Yeah I feel like he has a fairly dim view of a typical lifestyle based on some faulty assumptions. He seems to think that “staying on the treadmill” would be done by most people primarily for vain or frivolous reasons. That might be a part of it, but many people want or need these things out of necessity. Withdrawing from from working life and living like an austere hermit is not going to fly for a family of 4, for example. Hell, he was not even able to make it work as a couple. Very few mothers are going to tolerate raising a family on 30k a year when they damn well know their partner can go out and make 5x that much.

I also really question the whole living on 30k thing with 950k in the bank. That could be invested into some monthly paying income ETFs that would easily pay double if not more what he was taking out. Without even touching the principal.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#114

Post by mikepurvis »

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day?

In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied with myself. I go into it with what a I think is a reasonable list of chores/projects that I want to make progress on, but ended up just puttering around— paradoxically, I get a lot more done when I have short bursts of time and have to force myself to bite off a manageable chunk and actually see it through.

I've heard people argue that a few weeks just isn't long enough to trigger productive restlessness, and that's why a sabbatical is more like 6-12 months. But this is what I worry about for myself if I were ever in a position to retire young.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#115

Post by herbst »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #3

This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. It’s actually a common failure point of FIRE post-mittens that didn’t work out. Especially with couples, where it’s more likely that at least one p…

What I don't get about fire is that I want to enjoy my life equally now and when I am old. I have no issues filling time without getting bored, but I don't feel like wasting any time of my current life in a job I don't really enjoy just so I may enjoy life more later?

However I also believe that fire is a symptom and not a solution. It seems to be mostly popular in countries with little or non existent pension security.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#116

Post by mym1990 »

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

I think the prospect of being very financially stable changes the equation in such considerable ways. To me, the difficulty in finding 'happiness'(not sure if that is totally a thing) or purpose becomes an interesting endeavor AFTER you take the work/job away. I think after you take away the job(in favorable circumstances), you have the 'what now?' moment, and thats not an easy thing to answer.

For most people that really isn't a viable option currently.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#117

Post by vlunkr »

mgh2 wrote: post #110
zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#118

Post by hesdeadjim »

lupire wrote: post #102
low_common wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you rich/have no kids? Because most people probably cannot relate to the life you're living right now.

I don't think the Amish are particularly rich or childless?

This is where assumptions can get you in trouble.

The Amish are extremely business savvy, shrewd negotiators, and have no issues being active members in the economy. They also own vast tracts of very valuable land (especially in Lancaster, PA). Combine that with being frugal and austere, and it's a recipe for wealth.

For childcare, their community focus let's them share the burden amongst the larger group. Additionally, children are not nearly as coddled and are expected to contribute to the family's work, and help co-parent their siblings.

Compare this to the average nuclear family: underpaid, barely any savings, most likely rents, and lucky if they have even one family member nearby that can share the childcare burden.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#119

Post by westiseast »

mgh2 wrote: post #110
zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

Having meaning, yes.

Meaningful WORK? Not necessarily.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#120

Post by sevagh »

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

2018: life was perfect with my perfect partner until my perfect partner left me

2021: life is perfect with a new perfect partner who's never going to leave me unlike my previous perfect partner

2023: any guesses?

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