Earlier quoted context omitted.
Source, please?
In my peer group. Incentives drive behaviour
So, none. Obviously there will always be some assholes, that should not determine policy unless it gets out of hand.
European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
111–120 of 155 posts
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#112Where do I sign against this? This is just FIRE without the money. Did you read the actual proposal? They explicitly want to give a middle class life to everyone, with zero obligation from the individual. This is complete insanity. Kids will make zero plans to use school to make themselves useful. Kids are idiots (past me included), and if they knew they had the option to do nothing productive, then that's what a ver…
You end up with people doing things because they want to. Lots of people do lots of things for reasons other than money and we’re heading towards an economy where living a middle class life doesn’t require everyone to work. People will run factories and do science and make art without just needing to do it to eat. Humans before civilization didn’t work anywhere near so hard to survive as people today. Go look at gith…
> Lots of people do lots of things for reasons other than money
Yes, but most do earn some money. Or in other words they provide some service to other people in exchange for others doing things for them. Literally doing their part to be in a society.
But with UBI there is no longer any obligation for even a base level of doing service to anyone else.
> and we’re heading towards an economy where living a middle class life doesn’t require everyone to work.
No, but we are hundreds of years from Star Trek utopia where basically nobody has to work.
I don't think you get my point about just how unproductive society would be if everyone had FU money. Literally anybody could say "Oh, I can't take a month off, starting tomorrow? Ok, then I quit. Bye".
> We’re not in a post scarcity economy but it’s nearby.
Not even remotely close. Nothing in the world is not scarce. Hell, they say water is going to be the next big expensive thing.
With the growth we have, in people and resource consumption, if anything we are further away from post scarcity now than ever.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
The money comes from taxing citizens, assets, and corporations, colloquially known as “productivity and wealth”. I’m not European, so it would be rude of me to speak authoritatively on the quality of life Europeans want for each other, but I’ll take a crack at it. A UBI should be an inflation indexed amount that allows for enough food, clothing, and shelter for a dignified life. Not extravagant, but not USSR communis…
And how much would that cost? Be sure to include inflationary effects in your calculation.
It would cost whatever citizens collectively are willing to shave off of wealth and productivity with taxes. You wouldn’t set a monthly amount and then throw your hands up and say it’s unaffordable. You’d start with the max amount you could reasonably convince a majority of citizens (who vote) to support and work backwards.
I’m not an expert, by any means, but to say it’s impossible seems flippant and intellectually dishonest. A better way to approach it would be with caution and the understanding that a lot of research and effort is going to be required if it’s to be implemented soundly (or determined to be untenable).
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my peer group. Incentives drive behaviour
So, none. Obviously there will always be some assholes, that should not determine policy unless it gets out of hand.
The whole point of UBI is to remove means testing. I think we can set a number that works on average and let people move to suit their needs. We definitely should avoid all incentives to game the system as it will only distract and get the initiative bogged down in paper pushing bs.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
And how much would that cost? Be sure to include inflationary effects in your calculation.
It would cost whatever citizens collectively are willing to shave off of wealth and productivity with taxes. You wouldn’t set a monthly amount and then throw your hands up and say it’s unaffordable. You’d start with the max amount you could reasonably convince a majority of citizens (who vote) to support and work backwards. I’m not an expert, by any means, but to say it’s impossible seems flippant and intellectually…
It is dishonest not to set a minimum amount : you said it yourself, it needs to cover the Basic stuff. So there is a minimum.
For the EU, this is in the ballpark € 1000 - € 1500 - € 2000 ( we already have people on 'benefits' in NL, so there is consensus about this 'living minimum' ).
If you would really care so much as you claim you do, you could have easily provided a basic budget for this grand plan.
But you can't.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
It would cost whatever citizens collectively are willing to shave off of wealth and productivity with taxes. You wouldn’t set a monthly amount and then throw your hands up and say it’s unaffordable. You’d start with the max amount you could reasonably convince a majority of citizens (who vote) to support and work backwards. I’m not an expert, by any means, but to say it’s impossible seems flippant and intellectually…
It is dishonest not to set a minimum amount : you said it yourself, it needs to cover the Basic stuff. So there is a minimum. For the EU, this is in the ballpark € 1000 - € 1500 - € 2000 ( we already have people on 'benefits' in NL, so there is consensus about this 'living minimum' ). If you would really care so much as you claim you do, you could have easily provided a basic budget for this grand plan. But you can't…
I appreciate the snark, but there’s a reason policy is made in real life and not on “Hacker News.”
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is dishonest not to set a minimum amount : you said it yourself, it needs to cover the Basic stuff. So there is a minimum. For the EU, this is in the ballpark € 1000 - € 1500 - € 2000 ( we already have people on 'benefits' in NL, so there is consensus about this 'living minimum' ). If you would really care so much as you claim you do, you could have easily provided a basic budget for this grand plan. But you can't…
I appreciate the snark, but there’s a reason policy is made in real life and not on “Hacker News.”
Exactly. In real life you run the numbers and that is why we don't have UBI.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
I appreciate the snark, but there’s a reason policy is made in real life and not on “Hacker News.”
Exactly. In real life you run the numbers and that is why we don't have UBI.
Because something has not yet been done, does not mean it cannot be done.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you really want to rebut his comment, tell us how it would work ( including where the money would come from ). Your comment is as lazy.
The money comes from taxing citizens, assets, and corporations, colloquially known as “productivity and wealth”. I’m not European, so it would be rude of me to speak authoritatively on the quality of life Europeans want for each other, but I’ll take a crack at it. A UBI should be an inflation indexed amount that allows for enough food, clothing, and shelter for a dignified life. Not extravagant, but not USSR communis…
Sam Altman used to "predict" that it is inevitable that 80 percent permanent unemployment is coming and this is why we need a UBI. He's changed his tune a lot about the details and I have no reason to believe he's got any kind of special expertise that qualifies him to speak on this topic. It's just a pet subject of his and he's very rich, so he can get eyeballs on his ideas. And then people imagine that means he must have good ideas on the topic when it means no such thing.
There are people in the US on Social Security who are homeless. UBI doesn't solve one of the key issues in the US: The high cost of housing rooted in broken housing policies and broken city planning.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
The money comes from taxing citizens, assets, and corporations, colloquially known as “productivity and wealth”. I’m not European, so it would be rude of me to speak authoritatively on the quality of life Europeans want for each other, but I’ll take a crack at it. A UBI should be an inflation indexed amount that allows for enough food, clothing, and shelter for a dignified life. Not extravagant, but not USSR communis…
Sam Altman used to "predict" that it is inevitable that 80 percent permanent unemployment is coming and this is why we need a UBI. He's changed his tune a lot about the details and I have no reason to believe he's got any kind of special expertise that qualifies him to speak on this topic. It's just a pet subject of his and he's very rich, so he can get eyeballs on his ideas. And then people imagine that means he mus…
I don’t disagree that housing and healthcare policy are intertwined with UBI policy and implementation. An unregulated free market is unsustainable, and therefore UBI alone isn’t going to solve the welfare problem.
I would love your take, as someone who has a lot of experience with homelessness and life challenges, what you envision as impactful public policy to help set a firm quality of life floor for everyone.