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Stockfish 14

stockfishchess.org

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Re: Stockfish 14

#111

Post by esyir »

vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

Good luck. Those of us in other gaming spheres have been running up against this problem for aeons now. We're not winning. I can only imagine that detecting cheating is even harder in chess.

Re: Stockfish 14

#112

Post by ddek »

JosephRedfern wrote: post #110
madflame991 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure out they're using an engine? Are there obvious human moves and AI moves?

I guess a basic implementation might compare the moves performed by the player under evaluation against the move that an engine would suggest? Presumably an excellent player might often make the same moves as an engine, so this measure alone isn't going to be perfect. But it could be a starting point. You might also look at the player's historical performance and watch for suspicious changes, or perhaps look for patt…

It's hard because often cheaters will play 'clean' until they get behind or to a particularly ambiguous spot, when they will cheat for one or two moves.

The really hard part of chess is what to do in the mid game, once you're off your scripted opening, there is still lots of material, and neither player has any significant vulnerabilities. A computer is useful here.

Re: Stockfish 14

#113

Post by fsiefken »

What would be the added value of an average and aspiring chess player like me to play against Stockfish 14 instead of one of he previous versions? I feel I'll never challenge the maximum capacity of such an engine.

Re: Stockfish 14

#114

Post by sudofail »

madflame991 wrote: post #108
vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

How do you figure out they're using an engine? Are there obvious human moves and AI moves?

Maybe you could evaluate based on changes in player's performance or ELO. If they rapidly begin advancing, it could be more likely they are cheating.

Re: Stockfish 14

#115

Post by eertami »

madflame991 wrote: post #108
vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

How do you figure out they're using an engine? Are there obvious human moves and AI moves?

Sometimes yes, computers play a certain way and make moves that simply aren't intuitive to humans, especially not lower rated players.

However the most obvious cheaters are more easily given away by time between moves. When they take the same time between every move whether it be a deep positional move or an obvious recapture, you can be quite sure something fishy is going on. Sometimes they can have literally 1 legal move and still take 10 seconds to find it.

A good player using an engine sparingly however would be very difficult to spot in online chess, especially in a single match.

Re: Stockfish 14

#116

Post by fridif »

fsiefken wrote: post #113

What would be the added value of an average and aspiring chess player like me to play against Stockfish 14 instead of one of he previous versions? I feel I'll never challenge the maximum capacity of such an engine.

Probably most of the improvements in 14 are for arriving at a more accurate answer quickly for play against other machines

When you play stockfish at a human level, it is purposely choosing an answer it knows is worse ^.^

Re: Stockfish 14

#117

Post by fridif »

eertami wrote: post #115
madflame991 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure out they're using an engine? Are there obvious human moves and AI moves?

Sometimes yes, computers play a certain way and make moves that simply aren't intuitive to humans, especially not lower rated players. However the most obvious cheaters are more easily given away by time between moves. When they take the same time between every move whether it be a deep positional move or an obvious recapture, you can be quite sure something fishy is going on. Sometimes they can have literally 1 lega…

Sounds like bullet chess is the only answer

Re: Stockfish 14

#118

Post by bscphil »

zucker42 wrote: post #74
bigpumpkin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good idea. or have a dollar amount limit on the hardware

Given that AlphaZero will presumably never be publicly available, I think you might be interested in TCEC which has fair fights between Stockfish and LeelaChessZero (which Stockfish has won recently).

> I think you might be interested in TCEC which has fair fights between Stockfish and LeelaChessZero

This is pretty questionable in my judgment, actually. TCEC's GPU hardware is 4x Nvidia V100 data center class GPUs, with a pretty powerful processor to boot. A quick search suggests that ONE of these will run you close to $10k, so we're talking about an all-in system worth mid five figures.

Meanwhile, the CPU hardware is pretty dated at this point. They have 4x Intel E5-4669V4, which is from early 2016. It's not easy to find this processor for sale any more (because, again, it's old), but prices seem to run in the $750 - $1500 range if you look on places like Ebay. Meanwhile even on Ebay a V100 is likely to run you $7K+.

I don't know that it's possible to compare "performance" between GPUs and CPUs in a one to one way, but looking at cost, it seems pretty clear that you'd have to spend a lot more to get a system that allows Leela to play at the kind of level you see on TCEC.

Looking at power consumption tells a similar story. Nvidia's data sheet for the V100 shows a maximum power consumption of 250 watts per GPU, so 1000W when running at maximum load (as a chess engine is presumably likely to do). Meanwhile, Intel places the TDP of the E5-4669v4 CPU at 135 watts. Even assuming they're undershooting that by a bit, we're probably talking 600 watts for that system ... on a rather old CPU model.

I'd say it's not a fair comparison. I'm not mad about it, because at the end of the day computer chess tournaments are for entertainment. It's much better if the best neural net programs are competitive with more traditional chess engines, even if by "objective" standards they are weaker.

Re: Stockfish 14

#119

Post by mewpmewp2 »

vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

It's odd that it would be 1 out of 6 or 7, because when high elo streamers like Hikaru or Chessbrah are doing speed runs, they very often go on a 100 win streak, which sounds exceedingly unlikely if the odds of facing an engine user would be 1 out of 6/7.

An engine user would definitely beat them, unless they were using it sparingly of course, which can be, but I don't think it would be that obvious for you in this case as well.

There are examples where they face an engine and it's obvious, but it doesn't seem 1 out of 7 times.

Re: Stockfish 14

#120

Post by johtso »

ThomasCM wrote: post #98
surround wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chess.com ranks #195 whereas lichess.org ranks #1546 on Alexa's top sites. https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/chess.com https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/lichess.org

If anyone is looking for a way to merge games from lichess.org and chess.com: I'm developing a website where you can link your accounts to view stats for all of your games. It's free and currently in Beta: https://www.chessmonitor.com/ Here is an example for the current world champion: https://www.chessmonitor.com/u/kcc58R9eeGY09ey5Rmoj

I've been wishing someone would make something like this! Always frustrated me that tools like aimchess and openingtree only allow you to look at the two sources separately.. supposedly, at least in aimchess's case, the reason being that the rating systems are different.

How do you unify ratings?

Edit: ah I see you don't, makes sense I guess. Might be interesting to have them both on the same graph even if the y axis is different..

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