Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings • Hacker News Board

Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings

#111

Post by cratermoon » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #100

cratermoon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the Challenger SRB failure. Flown outside of design criteria with known flaws. But each time the shuttle flew with and SRBs had burn through, it was taken to mean not that there was a problem, but that the behavior was "safe".

Normalisation of Deviance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance See Charles Perrow's Normal Accidents and The Next Disaster . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow

That's the idea. The exact formulation of the term had slipped my mind.

Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings

#112

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #111

dredmorbius wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normalisation of Deviance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance See Charles Perrow's Normal Accidents and The Next Disaster . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow

That's the idea. The exact formulation of the term had slipped my mind.

Right.

Knowing the extant nomenclature is useful in researching ideas / literature further. I'm often stymied because I don't know what things are called in certain domains. Psychology seems to be especially prone to this for me.

Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings

#113

Post by JohnL4 » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 11:45 PM UTC

Syonyk wrote: post #9

> Mr. Kilsheimer cautioned that it is common in construction for the final product to differ from drawn designs. Yes, and there's also a decent history of structural failure, or nearly so, from that particular habit. The Hyatt walkway collapse ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse... ) is one of the better known - designed one way, built another so it would be easier and cheaper to build, and…

I read this and i think about the builder who ADDED rebar to Falling Water's cantilevered concrete. Wright was pissed, but I understand it's the only reason it's still standing today.

Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings

#114

Post by gerdesj » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #58

gerdesj wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Similar to the Grenfell Tower fire in Uk" No it isn't quite the same. I recently had a look at the docs about Grenfell. That's here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/aluminium-composite-material-cla... I haven't quite got to the bottom of whether the standards relating to fire was broken or whether the guidance for builders had a hole in it that allowed for what we now know as sub standard cladding.

The unquiry is still ongoing, but firstly the fire safety ceritifucate was forged, as second its not just the cladding, there were missing firebreaks, no evacuation route for disabled people, not functioning fire alarms and smoke extraction and countless other issues in the bulding - if it was just cladding half the residents wouldn't have coocked alive https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/news/grenfell-contracto...

My point was about whether the standards themselves were wrong.

You mention that the fire safety cert. was forged, they missed out firebreaks and there was a lack of escape routes. Also inadequate alarms and several other failings.

That is "just" crass negligence (dangerous and as it turns out massively fatal, negligence)

My point is that there also seems to be a possible systemic failure. There seem to be a few document releases since the disaster, of updates to standards. That implies that the standards themselves were inadequate and that is also a problem.