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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#111

Post by throwaway0a5e »

standardUser wrote: post #96
reedjosh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the…

Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down. Pretending otherwise, or pretending that the next database will be the one to break individualism and lead to autocracy, is just magical thinking.

>Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down...

The park might be full of needles but that's no justification for further litter.

Why do we need yet another database? People have enough problems with the no fly list and that's a short list. A DB that has 1/3 of the country flagged would cause mayhem from false positives and inconsistent data.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#112

Post by mulmen »

reducesuffering wrote: post #67
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19,…

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> Maybe we should require the vaccinated to keep getting more vaccine shots until science shows they're at par with natural antibodies, lowest hanging fruit and all...

Why would we do that when the vaccines are safer than the actual disease and effective enough to contain the spread?

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#113

Post by t-writescode »

reedjosh wrote: post #103
standardUser wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down. Pretending otherwise, or pretending that the next database will be the one to break individualism and lead to autocracy, is just magical thinking.

I don't at all disagree, but this will be the first one openly limiting freedoms via the government's monopoly of force. I do believe there are others already doing so too, but none of them are open and acknowledged by the public.

That's not true at all, several of our lists already limit constitutionally approved freedoms.

The No Fly List and felony registration for gun ownership being 2 examples.

edit: before the downvotes start, agreement with those lists does not negate that they are restricting freedoms based on activities that added or removed someone from a list

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#114

Post by JumpCrisscross »

motohagiography wrote: post #82
r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

What outcome does a domestic vaccine passport achieve? I work in health information privacy, where regulations were written to prevent that specific situation. There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions, so the case for it needs to be clear, especially in a world where people say in public that it is "irresponsible," to entertain critical opinions. What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?

> What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?

The same problem the Yellow Card [1] solves. Right now, I have a New York State electronic passport and a CDC paper proof of vaccination. The former works in New York City. The latter works across the U.S., at least now. (At least, it worked in San Francisco and Atlanta.) If I travel abroad, I may need to get the latter re-certified since it's trivial to forge and not independently verifiable. Having a single, authoritative document fixes all this and makes socializing and commerce more frictionless.

If we don't want to go into another lockdown when the Delta variant hits, we need to be able to isolate the vaccinated from the vulnerable. The former can continue mixing and mingling with reduced (though not zero) risk of causing a flare-up. The latter, I don't know, ideally they'd stay home but we know that won't happen.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Jaune

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#115

Post by adventured »

reducesuffering wrote: post #79
pkulak wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% of the population is violently (not a hyperbole) opposed to it.

I wonder why, when many people on this thread aren't even capable of understanding the science pointing out the difference between vaccinated, previous covid infection antibodies, and no protection. There's repeated boxing into vaccinated and unvaccinated like natural antibodies mean nothing, contrary to the available science.

The wild emotionalism that has overflowed during Covid, is unlikely to go back into the container, unfortunately. It's a hellish birth child of the lunacy of the social media era meets rampant pandemic hysteria.

Software engineers (engineers in general actually) aren't special at all when it comes to being rational. They just like to think they are because of their field. It's identical to Stephen Hawking thinking he had special insight on politics, because he was gifted at one thing; or a famous actor thinking they have special insight on politics because they're gifted at one thing. Engineers are just as prone to failing to control their emotions properly, bouts of subject irrationalism and failing to strive for objectivity as is the typical person. Your typical software engineer on HN is no more rational than the typical plumber, the plumber is just likely more honest about it and less full of their self. You see it in every thread on HN, yet the rational engineer myth persists, amusingly.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#116

Post by wait_a_minute »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #105
jaywalk wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My whole point is that current policies are conflating immunity with vaccination, when the science says that immunity from a past infection is equivalent to immunity from vaccination. If I can provide a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated. There is no scientific evidence to point to for believing otherwise.

> a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated Immunity from non-symptomatic infection differs wildly from symptomatic infection. It's also less flexible with new variants. I agree that there should be a way to document this. But there are still benefits to keeping certain spaces for the vaccinated only, to allow for denser mixing et cetera .

There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status.

Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consistently improving same as anywhere else, without any need for documentation or such mandates lol.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#117

Post by xadhominemx »

celdon25 wrote: post #90
xadhominemx wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not LFIA tests

Seems like in the context of this use case, the medical community would adopt the tests with the higher specificity, and there would be market pressure to lower the cost, if needed. Seems a bit of a reach to point to tests used for use case A to discount use case B.

Yes, it is possible to accurately detect antibodies with certain antibody tests (primarily, blood draws) administered by certain parties. But now you have a complex patchwork of antibody test exception standards formulated and enforced to satisfy the preferences of a small number of individuals, most of whom simply object to vaccination on ideological grounds. These folks should just get vaccinated.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#118

Post by wait_a_minute »

rajin444 wrote: post #101
fra wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your vaccination status impacts the people around you. There are folks who cannot be vaccinated (or who are not able to develop immunity from the vaccine). It is dangerous for them to be around unvaccinated people. So no, it is not just up to the individual to do what is best for them.

Couldn't you say the same for people who choose to be obese? Not only are they consuming more resources, but they're weakening their immune systems, thus furthering the likelihood they'll spread covid and other diseases. I'm not saying this is a world I want to live in, but how do you decide where to draw the line?

They will not be logically consistent, and thankfully. Because if they were, we'd be going towards a really fucked up world.

Generally you're right though. On their logic if pushed to its conclusion, all the totalitarianism in the world could be justified if it saves one person from dying of the flu or from dying of obesity.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#119

Post by CaptArmchair »

r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

The WHO has been issuing so-called Yellow Card certificates for decades. There are enough countries which will require vaccination against Polio, Yellow Fever and Meningococcal meningitis in order for you to cross borders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V...

Moreover, one of the first international certificate issued (1944) targetted Smallpox vaccinations and it's proliferation coincided with the booming air travel in the 1960's and 1970's. It is argued that the certificate was substantial towards preventing Smallpox from spreading in an age where endemic regions became only a few hours of flying away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent...

The United States signed and ratified the Convention back in 1945, essentially acknowledging that countries are able to require U.S. citizens to have a vaccine certificate.

While the Convention dates back 75 years, today's Yellow Card is the de facto standard for certifying that you have gotten shots at a border.

COVID-19 poses a challenge as this disease is highly infectious and crippling enough that preventing spread has become a far bigger global priority then other infectious diseases such as Yellow Fever. However, as of yet, a digital, secure, widely adopted solution that goes beyond the WHO's Yellow Card is still in the works. Several airlines and the IATA are working on their own travellers pass, but realistically, a trusted vaccination passport which is globally recognized requires an international treaty between nations governments. The world hasn't arrived at this point yet, and most countries still operate their own systems such as passenger locator forms or national passes issued to their own citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#120

Post by ryandrake »

reducesuffering wrote: post #67
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19,…

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those.

Yes, but don't just take their word for it. Confirmed clinical test should be the bar. I fear if the "you don't need a vaccine if you've had it" narrative gains traction, even if it is undeniably true, it's going to result in the anti-vaxxers lying about having already had the virus, to manufacture another excuse for themselves. If we've learned anything in the last year, it's that any system that relies on people to pinky-swear they're telling the truth will be exploited by a small but significant minority of people.

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