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What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

electionscience.github.io

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Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Condorcet methods performed well in this analysis, even under the various strategy models. Although it says that STAR performed slightly better under strategic voting, its scores are still very high. The main reason given in the text for preferring to highlight STAR was a (common) belief that the Condorcet methods are too difficult to explain and that explainability is important. Personally I think the Condorcet meth…

> Personally I think the Condorcet methods are not that difficult to explain. To the voter, no. It is just a ranked choice/ordinal system (which is why people get mad at IRV being called RCV). Just rank your candidates in order of preference. People naturally understand this, yes. BUT that's not what people typically mean when they says the system is hard to understand. What matters is transparency and how easy it is…

I do like STAR after having read this article, and I agree that it's easier to explain, but I'll defend my saying that condorcet isn't that hard:

Those virtual elections are not difficult to run (electronically) or explain though: "we use the ballots to work out for every person how they would do in a one on one election against each other person".

And the process for running the elections is straightforward too - count the number of ballots where one person appears higher in the list than the other person. There's no room for argument here, unless you're arguing about the ballots, which is something you can do with any system.

All of that stuff seems pretty straightforward to me.

Now, it is the case that the various ways of resolving situations where you have cycles is somewhat complex. I think that's just because those situations are genuinely complex, but there are things that can be done here to choose a relatively explainable one and work out good ways to visualize and explain it.

Finally, while cardinal systems can express the distance between preferences, there are ways an ordinal system can express things hard for a cardinal system. In an ordinal system you can allow a ballot not to include someone and have that mean 'no preference' between that person and all other candidates (perhaps because of lack of knowledge), while in an cardinal system an unscored person would have to be counted as having an actual score. There's also the question whether preferences really are consistent enough for a cardinal system to accurately reflect them - you might like X three times more than Y, and two times more than Z, but does that necessarily mean that you like Z one and a half times more than Y? Personally I also think there's a big difference between preferences between two candidates you'd be happy to win and candidates you actively don't want to win, and I don't think that difference can be captured by just making a scalar larger - not that ordinal approaches capture this either.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think 321 most closely matches the political climate in America. People tend to like a candidate, hate them, or "eh, they're fine." I couldn't disagree more. I voted in yesterday's NYC Democratic mayoral primary (13 candidates on the ballot), and there were three candidates I considered "like", but with a very strong preference for the first over the second, as well as the second over the third. In today's politi…

This is an argument for cardinal systems though... (more score/star rather than approval or 321). When ranking you encode in such a way that your preference from one candidate over another is uniform. But in scoring you don't have this limitation. You can express that you REALLY are passionate about 2 candidates but have a slight preference of one over the other, are lukewarm about a few, and really dislike others. O…

Score voting does solve a lot of problems, you're right.

Unfortunately it also introduces a ton of new ones, because while it's easy to compare ordinal preferences, there's no single good intuitive way to compare cardinal preferences.

If you give voters a scale from 0 to 10, one person's 3 is another person's 5. It's not even remotely clear that one person's vote of 8 should count the same as two other people's vote of 4, or even that the same person's 8 should count double their 4. Is the preferences scale linear? Logarithmic? Exponential? Other?

The arbitrariness and therefore unknown meaning of cardinal voting scores, and cardinal preferences generally, is the reason why philosophers mainly abandoned cardinal measures of utility a long time ago, and most utilitarian philosophy is based on knowledge of ordinal preferences only.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an argument for cardinal systems though... (more score/star rather than approval or 321). When ranking you encode in such a way that your preference from one candidate over another is uniform. But in scoring you don't have this limitation. You can express that you REALLY are passionate about 2 candidates but have a slight preference of one over the other, are lukewarm about a few, and really dislike others. O…

Score voting does solve a lot of problems, you're right. Unfortunately it also introduces a ton of new ones, because while it's easy to compare ordinal preferences, there's no single good intuitive way to compare cardinal preferences. If you give voters a scale from 0 to 10, one person's 3 is another person's 5. It's not even remotely clear that one person's vote of 8 should count the same as two other people's vote…

> there's no single good intuitive way to compare cardinal preferences.

What? You can literally rank them if you're confused. Better yet, rank them with unequal spacing (A:5, B:4, C:2).

It is hard to take your claim seriously because it has been tested in real world settings. This isn't a theoretical proposition (and you're arguing over theory). Also did you really just say "logarithmic vs exponential?"

The reality doesn't match your hypothesis and that is testable.

You're claiming philosophers abandoned it and I don't see evidence for this. Also I'm not sure why philosophers matter here, this isn't philosophy. Cardinal methods are the preference of most researchers that study voting. I don't know about you, but I tend to go with expert opinion (not absolutely, but it is a strong signal that something is the right path to follow. Then you just vet the work).

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think the Condorcet methods are not that difficult to explain. To the voter, no. It is just a ranked choice/ordinal system (which is why people get mad at IRV being called RCV). Just rank your candidates in order of preference. People naturally understand this, yes. BUT that's not what people typically mean when they says the system is hard to understand. What matters is transparency and how easy it is…

I do like STAR after having read this article, and I agree that it's easier to explain, but I'll defend my saying that condorcet isn't that hard: Those virtual elections are not difficult to run (electronically) or explain though: "we use the ballots to work out for every person how they would do in a one on one election against each other person". And the process for running the elections is straightforward too - co…

For the most part, yeah, Condorcet methods aren't that hard. But also consider who you and I are. We're talking on a very niche form where there's an expectation that everyone here can program and do calculus. We are not the average people.

But what I do want to stress is that cardinal systems are _easier_ than condorcet. I actually use approval frequently (it is also extremely natural). One case is how to solve where to eat as a group. It is infinitely scalable and you can just keep adding places as you think of them. If you reach a unanimous decision you stop, if you exhaust the list you take the maximal (baring strong preferences, which makes it kinda score but this works out naturally). I think from this example it should be pretty clear that it is much harder to do this sort of voting using any ranking system (nor is it scalable and is very computationally expensive to add new items).

It is often missed, especially by nerds (I fall in this camp too, I used to prefer Condorcet over cardinal), how important the transparency aspect of the voting system is. Arizona nailed the lid shut for me. If we're looking at it we're really not losing much VSE by using STAR over RP, but we do also gain a lot on every other metric (including spoilage, ease, transparency, and resistance to strategy). VSE isn't the only metric that matters and we shouldn't make large sacrifices in other metrics to gain a minute optimization in it.

> while in an cardinal system an unscored person would have to be counted as having an actual score.

This isn't necessarily true. You can modify cardinal ballots just like you do ordinal (the exact example you gave is not the theoretically perfect ordinal so I'm not sure why you compare to theoretically perfect cardinal). In practice people don't rate every candidate. In ranking you could effectively say that unranked candidates have a minimal score (and you are able to reduce the number of rounds through this, but comes with added complexity).

As to making the scale larger, yes this is correct that an infinitely large scale better encodes information. But there is a balance between that and simplicity. 10 is extremely effective. 5 is more than enough. But even 2 (approve/disapprove) seems to work out pretty well (aka "good enough").

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#115
The Junior Eurovision song contest has an interesting system - you must vote for 3 of the 12 entries. Voting for only 1 or 2 is not allowed. I'd be interested to see analysis of this. I don't think it's a good idea for government elections, I just wonder what it would actually do.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think the Condorcet methods are not that difficult to explain. To the voter, no. It is just a ranked choice/ordinal system (which is why people get mad at IRV being called RCV). Just rank your candidates in order of preference. People naturally understand this, yes. BUT that's not what people typically mean when they says the system is hard to understand. What matters is transparency and how easy it is…

I do like STAR after having read this article, and I agree that it's easier to explain, but I'll defend my saying that condorcet isn't that hard: Those virtual elections are not difficult to run (electronically) or explain though: "we use the ballots to work out for every person how they would do in a one on one election against each other person". And the process for running the elections is straightforward too - co…

Key word (electronically)

To me, any voting method dependent on software is a non-starter. A full paper trail is much easier to audit

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do like STAR after having read this article, and I agree that it's easier to explain, but I'll defend my saying that condorcet isn't that hard: Those virtual elections are not difficult to run (electronically) or explain though: "we use the ballots to work out for every person how they would do in a one on one election against each other person". And the process for running the elections is straightforward too - co…

Key word (electronically) To me, any voting method dependent on software is a non-starter. A full paper trail is much easier to audit

The Condorcet methods do not require software to count up - you can easily replicate the results by hand on paper, it's just that there's such a lot to do it'll probably take you a while. In practice, you're going to want to count up electronically and then probably do a random sample by hand to check.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key word (electronically) To me, any voting method dependent on software is a non-starter. A full paper trail is much easier to audit

The Condorcet methods do not require software to count up - you can easily replicate the results by hand on paper, it's just that there's such a lot to do it'll probably take you a while. In practice, you're going to want to count up electronically and then probably do a random sample by hand to check.

Right - you have to count up with software or it will take you a while.

To me, it's a hard choice that cardinal systems don't force you to make.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#119

It looks like it's a metric constructed to justify Range-ish voting systems, a la Warren Smith's Bayesian regret models. It performs the same core sleigh of hand: it takes a very simple view of strategic voting, assuming a fixed share of the electorate vote "strategically" regardless of election method, and making big assumptions about what's a good strategy. That is, to put it mildly, not a reasonable assumption. It…

VSI (or VSI) is just a different way of expressing regret. https://www.rangevoting.org/vsi

> It looks like it's a metric constructed to justify Range-ish voting systems, a la Warren Smith's Bayesian regret models.

Bayesian regret wasn't constructed to justify score voting (formerly known as range voting). Smith correctly used a utilitarian social welfare function, and just happened to find that score voting did best. This was by no means a given.

Indeed, the VSE calculations (conducted by a different mathematician, Jameson Quinn), used some different assumptions, and had STAR voting, 321 voting, and even certain Condorcet methods, beating score voting in some circumstances.

> It degenerates to pretty much the same problem as Plurality voting

You have this literally backwards.

http://scorevoting.net/BulletBugaboo https://electionscience.org/library/irv-degrades-to-pluralit...

> You just can't model strategy this naively.

It was modeled in a very sophisticated way, not "naively". The VSE figures even used all kinds of variations, e.g. asymmetric strategy where one side strategizes more than the other.

> And Range/Score voting is even more extreme: you can vote strategically there even knowing nothing about other people's preferences. Just always use extreme values (0 and 100).

And even if you do, it still gets better results.

> Borda gets a bad rap in these comparisons. It's not a good system, but the likelihood that "strategic voting" will backfire horribly means that in all likelihood, voters would not pursue those strategies.

That doesn't make any sense. Strategy, by definition, is a move which has a positive expected value. You seem to be conflating "bad aggregate performance under strategy" with "bad individual performance for a voter who uses strategy", which is deeply wrong.

Re: What Is Voter Satisfaction Efficiency?

#120

It looks like it's a metric constructed to justify Range-ish voting systems, a la Warren Smith's Bayesian regret models. It performs the same core sleigh of hand: it takes a very simple view of strategic voting, assuming a fixed share of the electorate vote "strategically" regardless of election method, and making big assumptions about what's a good strategy. That is, to put it mildly, not a reasonable assumption. It…

Condorcet methods performed well in this analysis, even under the various strategy models. Although it says that STAR performed slightly better under strategic voting, its scores are still very high. The main reason given in the text for preferring to highlight STAR was a (common) belief that the Condorcet methods are too difficult to explain and that explainability is important. Personally I think the Condorcet meth…

Condorcet is just needlessly complex and has worse behavior under high levels of strategy. Score voting (STAR, approval, etc.) is roughly as good and maybe even better, and dead simple, and very transparent.

The lesson of voting theory is to avoid ranked voting methods.

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