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For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

online.wsj.com

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Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#111

Post by art_wells »

un wrote: post #88
art_wells wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there might be problems with choosing the wrong criteria, but I can't see how "elitism" in itself can be a cause of problems in the hiring process.

By elitist I meant to say cliquey, you might filter out people you would really excel

Yes, I can see that as a possible problem. I've seen fewer cliqueness in this crew (prehaps because they all come from varied educational and professional backgrounds), than I have in groups pulled mostly from tech academics and companies.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#112

Post by un »

kingkongrevenge wrote: post #97
un wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The decreasing cost of manufactured goods, increase in quality of them, and the increase in GDP that has occurred over the past 30 years. (You can argue much of this can be attributed to technology, but a large share of it is due to outsourcing - most things in dollar stores and walmart are not due to technology but outsourcing). The rustbelt is caused by their inability to compete with the better quality Japanese ca…

Real median wages are flat or down in the US for the last 30 years. You can talk about the theoretical upsides to global free trade all you want. I'm a believer. But 2 billion people jumped into the labor pool and the reality in the US is that they made a wave that drowned a lot of people. Real wages are depressed. That's not to say there's any real alternative to full open participation in the global market, but you…

I don't think you can blame globalization for that, -technology has eliminated many jobs -companies have become more efficient at "desklling" workers into more narrowly defined roles (and so paying lower wages)

if you want to attack free markets, why not go further and advocate barriers on inter-state commerce within the US.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#113

Post by brent »

mattmaroon wrote: post #17
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

It's written from that perspective because college degrees are used as a proxy for job training, and most people pursue them so they can get a better job, which makes the system broken. The other benefits of the college experience don't require college anyway, and are cost-prohibitive to a lot of people. I don't think he was arguing that nobody should do 4 years of college. Just that employers need a better vetting s…

"The other benefits of the college experience don't require college anyway, and are cost-prohibitive to a lot of people."

The benefits of college are benefits because you cannot get them otherwise. It is a fallacy to claim otherwise.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#114

Post by Alex3917 »

whacked_new wrote: post #16
ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

I find the whole "college is..." or "college is not..." to be a problematic mindset in itself. For example, why not develop social skills in high school? Many of the student leaders I know from college started as high school student leaders. Now we're talking about "HS is..." or "HS is not..." or "HS sucks." Why wait until HS? Now we're talking about MS... then lower school. Then it's just your entire life as an indi…

"It's my personal fantasy. Impractical perhaps?"

There were actually three or four test schools operated this way during the 70s. The literature on them is really interesting.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&...

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#115

Post by Kaizyn »

ojbyrne wrote: post #4

The column seems to be entirely from the point of view of an employer looking to screen potential employees. Like it or not, college is about more than job training. For a lot of people the social life is a big part of it, the first part of life away from parents, but still with some security, and about intellectual exploration (answering the question - what exactly do I want to be when I grow up?). Perhaps none of t…

The WSJ isn't a conservative/Republican paper. It's actually just plutocratic.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#116

Post by milwaukeegreeny »

Good article. Fact of the matter is that academia has evolved over the decades into an ideologigal monolith. A stifling regiment of ideological political correctness.

In current times most young people would be well advised to avoid Universities and Colleges. After 4 years of classes they come out dumber than when they went in.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#117

Post by nazgulnarsil »

menloparkbum wrote: post #52
stcredzero wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need that in Programming!

No, we don't. I don't want some guild or certification authority telling me I can't program for a living until I've done 2 years of "journeyman" programming and passed my licensing exams.

this is the kind of thing that can only be implemented 1 company at a time. trying to make some sort of organization to do it would create problems.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#118

Post by thegoleffect »

jon_dahl wrote: post #9

This is better than most "college is a waste" articles, but it repeats a common mistake: thinking that people are hired for their skills. When I'm hiring, I don't want someone with a "web design" certificate or a "Python programming" certificate, or (worse) a "sales and marketing" certificate. I want someone who is smart, passionate, loves to learn, thinks creatively, knows how to write, and is enjoyable to work with…

>I want someone who is smart, passionate, loves to learn, thinks creatively, knows how to write, and is enjoyable to work with. These things can't be governed by a certificate system.

Yea, plus, those details can change with time. People can be moody, motivated one day, slack the next. Those details can be influenced by a lot of internal & external factors. So yea, that's a good point.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#119

Post by Prrometheus »

The example of certification-based credentials mentioned in the article, the CPA exam, is a bad one since you have to have a bachelor's degree in order to take the exam. It doesn't matter if you could ace it on your first try, most state accountancy boards require 150 hours of college credit before you can take the CPA. This restricts the supply of accountants and keeps accountant salary high.

There was a movement a few years back to increase the requirement to a full Master's degree. It's totally unnecessary to be a good accountant.

Re: For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time

#120

Post by MaysonL »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #91
MaysonL wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Wall Street Journal may or may not be irredeemably right-wing, but I'd bet on it. Also, looking at Murray's record on number-crunching, and I do mean The Bell Curve , betting on it to be anything more than BS with lipstick would be a losing proposition.

I don't understand your comment. Do you know who Barbara Ehrenreich is? If they are irredeemably right-wing, what is she doing on their editorial page? Murray considers himself a libertarian; Ehrenreich is a socialist. Neither is strictly 'right-wing'. And which errors from The Bell Curve are repeated in his column? I didn't spot any glaring mistakes, but perhaps I did not read as carefully as you did.

You said "Murray has crunched the numbers rather than counting the anecdotes" which may be true, but he crunched the numbers in The Bell Curve too.

Given The Bell Curve, none of his number-crunching statements are believable, without close scrutiny. I do know who Barbara Ehrenreich is, and I agree much more with her than with Murray, but calling her a socialist is typical political name-calling.

Edit: changed "right-wing" in the last sentence to "political" as being more accurate and less political.

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