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Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

spectrum.ieee.org

111–120 of 151 posts

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#111
post #52

A relevant answer from last year by @schoen (upon which I stumbled recently): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22495700

Thanks for your enthusiasm for my answer. :-)

The arbitrarily parameterized instances part is really important. In Bitcoin this is done by feeding prior blocks as input into the hash and then getting the hash to match the adjustable difficulty value, so you can generate new problems automatically based on the history.

The Stack Exchange answer that someone linked to here mentions this issue by saying that, if you just had a generic and deterministic useful problem, people could precompute solutions to relevant instances of it, which would amount to premining on the blockchain.

The "doing work to verify transactions" aspect comes in when you can make the problem instances actually encode a specific version of history. It's not obvious how to do that where each and every instance would be of intrinsic interest or value to someone.

Maybe there's some kind of physical simulation where this could be the case (like, each individual hash represents a particular randomly chosen chemical from a very, very large family of chemicals whose properties are being explored by simulation in some way, or something), but I'm still not sure how you could then make a successful result be easier for other people to verify without repeating the same amount of work. (I'm not familiar with a technique for proving, in an easily-checkable way, that the result of a complex physical simulation was such-and-such.)

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#112
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s actually worse than gas due to the inefficiencies inherent in power generation and transmission

nonsense. it's electricity. Gas doesn't have the option of coming from carbon neutral sources.

Turning gas into heat is very efficient. Turning gas into electricity and then into heat is not. Winter heating with renewables is problematic. You need to meet very strict insulation standards for it to be viable.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#113
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin uses less electricity than Christmas lights You could power Christmas lights for several Christmas if not a lifetime with the electricity used in a BTC transaction. Let that sink in.

Your facts are wrong. The global, yearly energy use of Christmas lights is ~2x Bitcoin's energy use. People way overestimate how much energy Bitcoin uses and way underestimate how much simple things like christmas lights, video games, hockey rinks, etc. use.

That means that Christmas lights are more popular than BTC. A BTC transaction consumes as much power as the average household in more than 3 weeks. If there were as many BTC users as Christmas lights users, the consequences wouldn't be pretty.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#114
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So could Bitcoin actually be used to make the world greener? No. The value of a PoW coin is based on the wasted electricity. If mining does something useful (like heating) for a large fraction of the miners the mining difficulty will go up to adapt to such change, requiring additional mining. At the end of the amount of wasted electricity will remain the same.

I think you need to research more. A computer is actually a heater that is 100% efficient. If you actually "waste electricity" to do useless computation, you still get 100% efficient heat output. 1000W of electricity pumped through your cpu is outputting 1000W of heat as well. Maybe imagine if your logic gates in your computer is water powered. You could still drink the water after it did it's computation.

> I think you need to research more. A computer is actually a heater that is 100% efficient.

I have a degree in EE.

The wasted electricity is in additional heat that you don't want in your home and you have to vent.

Suppose millions of people could replace resistance heaters with mining rigs that cost exactly the same and consume exactly the same amount of energy every day.

Such people would be running the miners ever if the financial gain is very close to zero, because they were already using the same amount of electricity for heating.

That means they would push the mining difficulty up. But, if the demand for coin remains the same, other people will run mining rigs that releases increasing amount of heat in the environment.

You just pushed the amount of wasted heat from one place to another.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every week, every month, every year, crypto is alleged to be dead and dying. And still the adoption, usage, and price goes up. It gets hyped, it falters, people stop talking for a while, and the cycle repeats itself.

Yes, you can say the same thing about any ponzi scheme, until it finally crashes.

Blockchain != cryptocurrencies

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#116
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins use an entropy increasing resistance hash function, which makes it terrible for heating and cooling. There's a reason why we should use FedCoin instead of Bitcoin or cash or gold.

It... what? If you put 1000W of electrical energy into a Bitcoin miner, you get 1000W of heat out the far end. It's the same efficiency as a resistive element space heater, just has done some work (useful or not, it's still work) on the way through. Same thing for a computer running BOINC or Folding@Home. Power goes in, heat comes out, but you've done something useful in the gap.

Congratulations, you have reduced your heating bill by $x! You can now spend $x on mining and get more Bitcoin!

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, but for sure you have to take in account the amount of buildings, air-conditioning, commuters, datacenters, branches, ATMs, bad written code, exchanges. Beside that, Bitcoin probably after the 21 million were mined, should drop the energy consumption (ok, ok, it will take almost 100 years to happen), but it means that in long term, bitcoin will be consuming much less energy than now. Probably impossible to compar…

> but for sure you have to take in account the amount of buildings, air-conditioning, commuters, datacenters, branches, ATMs, bad written code, exchanges. You also have to do the same thing for Bitcoin if you want the comparison to remain fair. Bitcoin doesn't magically replace the entire financial industry, so you don't want to accidentally include the costs of the things it doesn't replace (such as the bank manager…

you are right, but this reduction like "bitcoin is useless because it uses more energy than $COUNTRY/$CITY" is IMO just click bait.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#118
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to research more. A computer is actually a heater that is 100% efficient. If you actually "waste electricity" to do useless computation, you still get 100% efficient heat output. 1000W of electricity pumped through your cpu is outputting 1000W of heat as well. Maybe imagine if your logic gates in your computer is water powered. You could still drink the water after it did it's computation.

> I think you need to research more. A computer is actually a heater that is 100% efficient. I have a degree in EE. The wasted electricity is in additional heat that you don't want in your home and you have to vent. Suppose millions of people could replace resistance heaters with mining rigs that cost exactly the same and consume exactly the same amount of energy every day. Such people would be running the miners eve…

Ah I see what you meant by "work can't be useful", apologies. But I think you did jump to some conclusions for example, increase of difficulty does not require more miners. It is a side effect of miners joining. So the profitability of existing mining infra in server racks will go down due to the difficulty increase. It would most likely incentivize them to also somehow recycle their "waste heat" for profit. My comment elsewhere is maybe devoping space heaters that do computation (maybe hashing is not that computation but I think it can work), we could use them to migrate off existing heating tech used in my country (natural gas furnaces) and net lower greenhouse gas emissions because not all electricity is generated from greenhouse gas, only some, and it also has a path forward to no green house gas emissions from electricity generation.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#119
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

could you provide any link or resource for further reading? I never saw anything like that and I would like to know what they are taking into account in this comparison.

"One Bitcoin transaction would generate the CO2 equivalent to 706,765 swipes of a Visa credit card, according to Digiconomist’s closely-followed index, albeit with none of the convenience of plastic." https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-26/is-bit...

Thank you for the link, but thats not the same thing. Try to transfer heavy money from Venezuela to Japan, being in Venezuela or from Ghana to Germany, being in Ghana, using your Visa credit card. Try to do it under 24 hours. The fastest way will be flying which can be easily more expensive and risky than bitcoin.

Re: Why Can't Computing at the Heart of Bitcoin Be More Useful?

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't be fair to compare the amount energy to run bitcoin vs the amount of energy to run the banking system? Hasn't this comparison been made over and over, and every time it comes out in favor of traditional banking by a mile ?

could you provide any link or resource for further reading? I never saw anything like that and I would like to know what they are taking into account in this comparison.

You have to consider that Bitcoin offers nothing beyond a ledger/a bar tab. It doesn't do lending, which is the core business of banks. Sure ETH has some smart contracts do that do lending but we are talking about Bitcoin. If Bitcoin could only grow up like his little brother nobody would complain.
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