Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#111

Post by FeepingCreature » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

dale_glass wrote: post #25

mudil wrote: post #3

ACLU has been subverted by political correctness, mob mentality of internet, and the do-gooder activists. ACLU is a perfect example on how we ended up in the through the looking glass world.

That's not what I get from reading it. You could give that a try. Here's an interesting bit: > The A.C.L.U. of Virginia argued that this violated the free speech rights of the far-right groups and won, preserving the right for the group to parade downtown. With too few police officers who reacted too passively, the demonstration turned ugly and violent; in addition to fistfights, the far right loosed anti-Semitic and…

> I see this as a conflict between deontology and consequentialism. Deontology says "free speech was defended, the outcome doesn't matter. Let's keep going". But it turns out that deontology isn't that great of a fit for the real world, because people do care about consequences very intensely. Few have the iron-clad nerve needed to say "an innocent died as the consequence of my/my group's actions, and nevertheless I wouldn't change a thing".

I see this all the time in the so-called "paradox of tolerance", which is of course only a paradox if you assume a consequentialist framework as unstated background assumption.

Personally, I feel asking people to make personal consequentialist decisions gives them far too much leeway to bring personal bias in, so I'm in favor of deontological freedom of speech - on consequentialist grounds.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#112

Post by Applejinx » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

insert_coin wrote: post #83

Free speech is the only “right” that matters. Thoughtcrime should not be allowed to be prosecuted, mob lynching is not justice. But if the ACLU is compromised maybe it is too late.

That gives rise to the fair question of, 'is free speech the only law that exists?' To what extent do all other considerations go by the wayside in order to draw a bright line sanctioning ALL possible expressions of ideas in speech, by definition rendering them immune from any sort of judgement or consequence?

I think there's a fair amount of existing law that's made rather ridiculous by this position. In particular, the whole notion of conspiracy goes out the window when it's by definition not possible to share in responsibility for an act by persuasion. I'm not even sure it's possible to extort: if you can plausibly say you will wreak mayhem on a person for failing to comply, and you do so, and they comply rather than get mayhem wrought upon them, you've got what you want but you have never done more than speak. Your actions have never once crossed the line. The fact that your speech functioned as plausible threats is irrelevant: it was always and only speech, because nobody called you on it.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#113

Post by throwaway2162 » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #22

I like this idea: https://twitter.com/kittypurrzog/status/1401610476237197312 The ACLU should split into two groups: ACLU Sr, which fights for free speech rights, and ACLU Jr, which fights against them (Yes, I saw this when PG retweeted it.)

I wonder how large the generational divide is there. Are younger lawyers less likely to take cases of clients they deem detestable? The article alludes to some internal rift but the topic may deserve an article all on its own.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#114

Post by himinlomax » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #67

JohnTHaller wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ACLU Position: Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right." https://www.aclu.org/other/second-amendment

That's a pretty stupid position, since it's pretty clear the 2nd amendment is saying that it's a right of "the people". The preface is to explain the reason it's a right, that is to form the Militia, which is commonly understood to consist of most able-bodied men. If individuals aren't allowed to own and practice with weapons normally, then when it's needed the Militia will not be "well-regulated", as in well-armed o…

Look, you're entitled to interpret the 2nd amendment the way you do, but the fact is that it is a short bit of text and yet it includes the words "a well regulated militia." It's perfectly reasonable to believe those four words are there for a good reason. Gun rights activists choose to ignore those words. If their position deserve any respect, the one that does not ignore them evidently deserves at least as much.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#115

Post by jetrink » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #98

tpmx wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, now it's flagged so much that it actually is removed. I can only read "[flagged]". I really dislike this particular HN design decision. Reddit handles this case much better.

Downvoting is a form of free speech too. You have the freedom to say what you like, but there’s no obligation on anyone else to listen to it or like it, or publish and distribute it.

However, in any community where the down vote is used for mere disagreement, there is no room for dissenting opinions. An open discourse requires that people are willing to listen to those whom they disagree with. Down voting liberally is counter to that principle.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#116

Post by tpmx » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

ttt0 wrote: post #110

tpmx wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. It actually works, too. Makes me think of the "Beware of the Leopard" Douglas Adams quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40705-but-the-plans-were-on... Still, it's removed for the vast majority of readers, by design. That's how defaults work, particularly when the settings page is so vague.

You can always vouch for the comment if you think it was flagged unfairly. I think each comment can be "resurrected" only once though.

You can only vouch for a dead comment if you do this showdead settings change. (Otherwise you can't see it.)

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#117

Post by kofejnik » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

> Four years later at the University of Connecticut, two white students ... > The A.C.L.U. of Connecticut demanded that the university hire 10 Black faculty and staff members

NYT's double standards are ridiculous

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#118

Post by birdyrooster » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #21

jseliger wrote: post #2

I was a member for 10 years and stopped renewing a year or two ago, when it seemed to stop putting free speech and expression first.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

Trans politics was going okay until they took the lions share of BLM donations that was raised on the death of cisgendered straight black men. There are people that are unhappy with this distribution being called anti-trans and it’s kinda insane.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#119

Post by calcifer » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

dale_glass wrote: post #25

mudil wrote: post #3

ACLU has been subverted by political correctness, mob mentality of internet, and the do-gooder activists. ACLU is a perfect example on how we ended up in the through the looking glass world.

That's not what I get from reading it. You could give that a try. Here's an interesting bit: > The A.C.L.U. of Virginia argued that this violated the free speech rights of the far-right groups and won, preserving the right for the group to parade downtown. With too few police officers who reacted too passively, the demonstration turned ugly and violent; in addition to fistfights, the far right loosed anti-Semitic and…

> At that point a lot of people started asking themselves "Are we really being a positive influence?". And a conflict began.

Those people were clearly in the wrong though. After all, why join a civil liberties union if your support for said liberties is conditional on your whims?

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#120

Post by Nicksil » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

AcerbicZero wrote: post #40

Nicksil wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Despite the sad loss of the ACLU as an institution that cares about civil liberties, we can remain hopeful due to other organizations like FIRE. You're just going to leave it there? What/who is FIRE? This isn't one of those unique words easily discovered during a web search.

From context, I’d guess they are an organization who the parent commentator believes represents civil liberties better than the ACLU. It seems they also edited their comment to include a link - seems pretty reasonable to me.

>It seems they also edited their comment to include a link - seems pretty reasonable to me.

Well of course this was done after my comment.