Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#111

Post by Gravityloss » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #64

perihelions wrote: post #3

This is some remarkably long-term planning: "If construction goes ahead as planned, the majority of the foundations for the island off Denmark's capital should be in place by 2035, with an aim to fully complete the project by 2070." I can't recall ever seeing the year 2070 or later in print, in the context of some definite project or plan. Are there other examples?

Dams, skyscrapers, military bases, housing mortgages, bonds, business contracts, commercial leases, land/resource/farm leases. Lots of things have 50 (or longer) year plans, contracts, payoffs, repayment schedules, and so on. Here's Austria's recent 100 year bond (paying a comical 0.88%): https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-24/austri... The deal on Hong Kong was supposed to be 50 years, with it operati…

DC-3 aircraft from the thirties still operate. And aircraft experience nontrivial loads and wear.

Good engineering and craftsmanship.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#112

Post by boublepop » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #73

manexploitsman wrote: post #54

Wouldn't it be cheaper and better for the environment to buy some land off Germany or Sweden? Once the deal is sealed, they could start building the city the very next day.

There is plenty of space in Denmark for its existing population (and for millions more, for that sake). The issue is that there is not that much space in Copenhagen.

There is plenty of space in Copenhagen. However plans to build anything anywhere gets shot down constantly with silly laws and restrictions. Politicians don’t want a more healthy housing market in the capital because they are all some of those who are profiting most from how unhealthy it is.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#113

Post by lbriner » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

dustymcp wrote: post #84

I cant stop wondering the why its such a massive undertaking and we have plenty of land just expand on the other side i cant stop feeling that this is a prestige project with very little gain.

That's exactly what I thought. There is a ridiculous amount of power that gets attached to a capital city, which means we can't do the sensible thing which would be to spend far less creating new towns or cities with modern sustainable methods, better balance of transport/living etc.

I guess it is just good money after bad and the fact that despite the amount of sense it makes to build elsewhere, lots of companies cannot find good employees and think they need to be in the big city to get those.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#114

Post by boublepop » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

rvense wrote: post #51

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #28

> A case against the development of Lynetteholm has been brought before the European Court of Justice by environmental groups. I’m always a little surprised that the most wild and natural parts of world (the flyover country) is populated by anti environmentalists (or rather, libertarians typically), and the most densely populated cities devoid of most green things tend to have clusters of environmentalists. Don’t the…

> Don’t they know they can come out to the country, buy 50 acres of woods and streams and meadows and wildlife, and not worry about how many cars are on the streets of Copenhagen? In Denmark? Hardly. If you buy 50 acres here, you'll get fields or pastures, and the legal obligation to keep it as such. Actually, as far as I remember anything over 30 hectares will come with requirements that you have some sort of certif…

There’s no requirement to get a “certificate as a farmer” and you can get European subsidies to fund converting fields to forrests. The only thing you can’t do is build more housing on the fields, because everyone in power in Denmark is doing everything they can to fight affordable housing.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#115

Post by bertil » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #76

yread wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems reasonable. Maasvlakte is a comparable project: an artificial island (20 km2 while this island is "only" 2.8km2) outside Rotterdam harbor and it was built over 25 years (1974-1997) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasvlakte (Dutch wiki has much more info: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasvlakte ) Another comparable project is the new Strandeiland in Amsterdam https://www.amsterdam.nl/projecten/ijburg/deelproject…

Kobe in Japan has several artificial islands. all built by a Dutch company.

I used to work with Dutch people who like to tell that “God made the world, the Dutch made the Netherlands.” I corrected them, saying they made a lot more than that: I grew up on an island in France that was under the control of Dutch merchants in the XVIIth century; they built a levy to double the amount of dry land. There’s polders like that everywhere.

The levy has been fine for the last four centuries, but local engineers were thinking of raising it. For that, they might need someone to help them translate the original blueprint. I once joked about deciphering it when talking to another Dutch friend on mine. She’s close to the Royal family and I was curious possibly needing asking Historian for help. She didn’t seem surprised at all. Apparently a lot of Dutch diplomacy, to this day, is sharing that expertise and that unique, century-long, perspective. The King is a hydrological engineer (and a commercial pilot) and has lead international projects.

The techniques and examples are pretty much ideas tested centuries ago, with the occasional minor adjustment like: windmills with Archimedes screw can be marginally improved if you use wind power and electric pumps. I’m sure someone on one of those projects has had to joke “Grand-grand-papa wasn’t a big believer in ballast. It was a new idea then. But we can try this time.”

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#116

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #85

BurningFrog wrote: post #23

> The approval by Denmark's parliament paves the way for the 1 sq mile (2.6 sq km) project to begin later this year. That's not a giant island.

These kind of numbers are not intuitive. Don't forget that you are working in volume of material. Making something only 1m high across 1 sq mile is around 2.5 million cubic metres.

I only commented on the size of the island.

As island go, "giant" is far from a correct description.

Calling it a "giant project" would be fine.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#117

Post by potiuper » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

Might as well be done with it and build the wall between Skagen and Gothenburg.

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#118

Post by DonHopkins » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #33

perihelions wrote: post #3

This is some remarkably long-term planning: "If construction goes ahead as planned, the majority of the foundations for the island off Denmark's capital should be in place by 2035, with an aim to fully complete the project by 2070." I can't recall ever seeing the year 2070 or later in print, in the context of some definite project or plan. Are there other examples?

Not quite the same, as it’s already completed, but John Malkovich made a film with Robert Rodriguez that won’t be released until 2115. 100 Years is an upcoming experimental science fiction film written by John Malkovich and directed by Robert Rodriguez. Advertised in 2015 with the tagline "The Movie You Will Never See", it is due to be released on November 18, 2115. The 100-year span matches the time it takes for a b…

Oh Yeah: Dieter Meier, of the band Yello, made a plaque with a promise that he honored 22 years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Meier

>As a conceptual artist, he has been keeping himself busy with many art exhibitions. He began his career as a performance artist in the late 1960s. In 1972 as part of Documenta 5, Meier installed a commemorative plaque at the railway station in Kassel (Germany) which read: "On 23 March 1994, from 3 to 4 pm, Dieter Meier will stand on this plaque". He honored the promise 22 years later.

https://www.dietermeier.com/1994

https://fawny.org/shyello.html

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#119

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #35

Ericson2314 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an oft-quoted phenomenon, but I think it's important to point out it need not be true. We've had chronically weak demand, in which case more retires should actually be good , raising wages and spurring productivity improvements. In the US, just need to keep healthcare costs under control.

Retirees are not known for generating large amounts of demand compared to younger people who work.

I don't really follow? Workers are supply (their labor) and demand (their consumption), but as we have more productive industrial capacity and more of it, the cycle breaks down as not enough labor is needed, reducing their purchasing power and further slackening the labor market in a vicious cycle.

Retirees don't work, which means nevermind the absolute amount of demand (no kids, etc., make less per household sure) the ratio of supply to demand offsets the productivity / industrial capacity gains. Coupled with more retires, that could restore the balance and get the "Keynsian feedback loop" going again.

(We could still go into a massive worldwide recession, but that would be a political result of the powers that be not wanting the profit share of national income to decrease. That is plenty possible but not some unavoidable "demographic destiny".)

Re: Denmark parliament approves giant artificial island off Copenhagen

#120

Post by rvense » Sat, Jun 05, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

boublepop wrote: post #114

rvense wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don’t they know they can come out to the country, buy 50 acres of woods and streams and meadows and wildlife, and not worry about how many cars are on the streets of Copenhagen? In Denmark? Hardly. If you buy 50 acres here, you'll get fields or pastures, and the legal obligation to keep it as such. Actually, as far as I remember anything over 30 hectares will come with requirements that you have some sort of certif…

There’s no requirement to get a “certificate as a farmer” and you can get European subsidies to fund converting fields to forrests. The only thing you can’t do is build more housing on the fields, because everyone in power in Denmark is doing everything they can to fight affordable housing.

A few years ago when I was looking at houses in the country there was definitely some requirement for buying more than 30 or 35 hectares of farmland. And while you might be able to get permission to convert some areas into forests, it is explicitly stated in the planning laws that the character of the countryside is to be preserved. I can assure you that there are lots of things you can't do.

And before that, of course, there's the price. 50 acres way out in the sticks in America might be quite affordable. Arable land in Denmark, less so. There's no easy escape here like the post I reacted made it sound.