Chiropractors are bullshit • Hacker News Board

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#111

Post by pochamago » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

LeonB wrote: post #30

cj wrote: post #11

I come from a long lineage of chiropractors (although I’m not one). I’ve never been a big believer in the practice, and yes there are very rare cases where a chiropractic adjustment can lead to a stroke but again, it’s extremely rare. (Perhaps less rare if you’re going to the guy at the mall kiosk..) I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful. A lot of physical and mental hea…

> I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful. The burden of proof lies very much in the other direction.

No, that's not how burden of proof works. The default assumption is that a given event has zero effect. If you want to assert that it's actively harmful then the burden is on you to show that.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#112

Post by dboreham » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

marvindanig wrote: post #18

I hadn't heard of the term 'chiropractors' until our family moved into the suburban parts of the US. The other fancy shops that surprised me by their existence were these healing crystal stores and astrologers and whatnot. Eww. I mean it is downright unacceptable these days.

Magical thinking is quite prevalent in the US.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#113

Post by smt88 » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

cosmotic wrote: post #107

smt88 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine went to one of the best chiropractic schools. She said 30% of her instructional time was business classes. That told me a lot about the field.

How is 'best' quantified here? =)

Debatably, as with all rankings.

Here it means highest-ranked/best-known based on trade publications.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#114

Post by sumeno » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

pochamago wrote: post #111

LeonB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful. The burden of proof lies very much in the other direction.

No, that's not how burden of proof works. The default assumption is that a given event has zero effect. If you want to assert that it's actively harmful then the burden is on you to show that.

Which is why we let people sell anything they want as medicine until someone proves it's harmful...

Oh wait that's the opposite of how it works. Medical procedures have to go through a rigorous approval process to prove they are safe, or at least better than no treatment.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#115

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #78

thathndude wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But the original basis for chiropractic care would make claims like this. They would blame the cancer on spinal issues. And that’s what I’m saying is bogus. I agree that most chiros now would not say that because it’s ludicrous.

The original basis for pretty much all medical treatment was nonsense. Some people noticed some things worked, that got passed down and added to over time, somebody spotted patterns and built up an elaborate theory and then that got passed down as gospel. The classic example is Hippocrates' theory of the Four Humours. Galen, world-renowned physiologist, elaborated on this by ascribing psychological temperaments to ea…

Men have more teeth than women goes back to the Greeks, and Galen wasn't the only person to run with the idea. (cf. Jews having more teeth than non-Jews, etc)

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#116

Post by crazydoggers » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

All the comments here simply show the very poor state of science education.

Everyone should read this book and then reevaluate comments about chiropractors.

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0345409469/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm...

And I’m not throwing shade. It’s not any single persons fault or a comment on character. I really do believe there’s a systemic problem with our education system. The reason chiropracty causes this to stand out is that it very successfully flaunts the scientific method and is still accepted at large (for reasons I won’t start going into, but most of which are covered in the book)

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#117

Post by sigmaprimus » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #93

sigmaprimus wrote: post #42

I hurt my back moving a friend, went to a chiropractor for two weeks. Im not sure if it wad a pinched nerve or what but the pain was excruciating when transitioning from standing to sitting and vice versa. On my 4th visit the pain was still there but the chiropractor put me on the table positined me on my side with my arms arcross my chest and knees bent and amazingly he pushed down and the pain dissapeared instantly…

Lots of people have this kind of experience. If you did a survey asking people whether chiropractors are useful for musculoskeletal problems, you would get a strong response that yes they are. But self reported experience, even through a broad survey is not evidence because people can't be trusted to accurately report what they feel. I personally think the problem is that the practice has over-medicalized what it doe…

>because people can't be trusted...

I suppose that is true, where I live chiropractic visits are subsidized by a government run medical system and because of that, there is a detailed record of treatment. Positive and negative outcome inference should be possible with such a record so trusting people is not required.

In other words, if enough people visited chiropractors and then later visited doctors for pain medication and or surgery then there would be a reasonable argument against funding chiropractic treatments. I can only assume the opposite is also true, hence the reason they are currently and have been funding chiropractor treatments for the last three decades.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#118

Post by DigitallyFidget » Sat, May 15, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

Bottom line for me is that a chiropractor does aid short term in my experience. After a few sessions, I feel much more mobile and flexible and less stiff. Does this hold out in the long run? No. Is this placebo and the "feel good" sensation just makes me thing it helps? Probably. Does that "probably" actually make a noticeable difference to me? Yes.

I've only done it for about 6-9 sessions at a time, and with years between revisits. It's the same effect, for me, as a massage therapist. For a while after the therapy, I feel great.

I don't look at chiropractors or massage therapists as a cure for anything. It's just an experience that feels good and has short term lasting effects that have been worth the cost to me.

I work a hands on job involving climbing, crawling, pulling or lifting up to 150kg or 330lbs, and various other physically strenuous activities, as well as sitting at a desk. So the benefits may greatly differ for me than that of an average person.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#119

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 15, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #115

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original basis for pretty much all medical treatment was nonsense. Some people noticed some things worked, that got passed down and added to over time, somebody spotted patterns and built up an elaborate theory and then that got passed down as gospel. The classic example is Hippocrates' theory of the Four Humours. Galen, world-renowned physiologist, elaborated on this by ascribing psychological temperaments to ea…

Men have more teeth than women goes back to the Greeks, and Galen wasn't the only person to run with the idea. (cf. Jews having more teeth than non-Jews, etc)

> Men have more teeth than women goes back to the Greeks

Men on average have more teeth than women (since hyperdontia is twice as common in men.)

But that's obviously not what the Greeks were referring to.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#120

Post by Arch-TK » Sat, May 15, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

huachimingo wrote: post #35

thathndude wrote: post #12

The historic scientific basis for chiropractors is total BS. The idea that everything stems from the spine, and if you get the spine and alignment, everything else will follow. Literally, a belief that you could, for example, cure cancer, by aligning the spine. That’s no better than energy healing, and the idea that you have energy flows that get interrupted and need to be corrected by using a certain crystal. Having…

I dont want to be the devils advocate. Usually in those cases you would be better consulting another doctor, just in case. Doctors are also human. I had a friend who had eye problems suddenly, and the first doctor told him that he would become blind in some more years. Then he told him to put some eyedrops to ease pain meanwhile. He was devastated. Imagine being in your 18s and then become blind... Then, he went to a…

Just a side note but in a place like the UK you don't get to "see another doctor" for a second opinion (unless you go private) without moving to a different surgery altogether. Usually if you even so much as question the opinion of your GP you will get ostracized and mocked. Asking to see a different one in the same surgery will leave you getting questioned by the receptionist as to why you would ever want to do that and if you do somehow manage to get an appointment with a different GP they will likely have been informed that you've moved to them from another GP in the practice and will treat you like a nagging hypochondriac.

I have an endless number of terrible experiences with UK GPs and few good experiences.

When I was 8 I started getting headaches. These headaches got worse and worse until I was hitting my head against the wall and the metal bedposts of my bed to give me pain to distract from the headache. My mother took me from GP to GP getting a record at the local surgery for being quite a pest trying to get a GP who would do something about it instead of claiming that it's normal for an 8 year old kid to get debilitating headaches and that I was just acting or that I just needed to get given paracetamol.

A year or two later I had flat feet which caused me immense pain while walking long distances. Going to the GP it took my mother's begging and another GP change before they decided to give me a referral to a specialist (previously one GP said that I just needed to take paracetamol and if that didn't work take ibuprofene as well, which my mother tried until I started getting pains in my abdomen which I assume must have been my liver or stomach complaining). The specialist immediately noticed that I did in fact have flat feet and needed inserts in my shoes to correct this. The inserts immediately stopped the pain from happening and a few months later I could walk without inserts.

When a lot of front-line doctors (at least in my experience) avoid taking on the responsibility of making any kind of diagnosis or even getting you to a specialist I can totally see why people who privately go directly to someone who has at least a little bit of specialization find the results to be a lot better.