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How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

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Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#111

Oh man, the worst are those that pretend to be benevolent but end up firing you after a vacation. The one who writes memory-bloated code, who keeps state around, that loves to cross types has the gaul to do a single performance review after 8 months to criticize your code quality and fire you. (Recent experience) Or how about the one guy that shouts at people when they ask ANY question on why things work that way, re…

What's with the firing after vacation thing? Always puzzled me.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#112
post #96
post #4

Imagine going into an environment suffering some serious performance issues adversely affecting the day-to-day operations of the business. From initial conversations it seems great. You're asked about how you'd handle, "difficult personalities" a fair bit, but aside from that, seems like you can add a ton of value. In your first days, you exhaustively quantitatively measure the entire operating environment, prioritiz…

I had this happen to me. Walked out after 2 months before completing 3 month trial period. I had a boss who said he is best developer in the world and he meant it. He caused major outage when the code he developed and brought to the company as an asset failed. The code was to exchange SMS messages with an SMS gateway for Ukrainian operator. The messages were sent using mails. That was 15 years ago and not his fault,…

> - when working for a Swedish company, when they extended my contract and said they are very happy to have me but they can't pay me the same rate as my Swedish colleagues (I am Polish).

As an immigrant in Sweden, this is one of the instances where I'd love a name-and-shame (but it's just wishful thinking, I don't expect or really want you public shaming companies). Simply because I've heard this happening to other colleagues, in different companies, and for some Swedes this sounds almost fabricated.

I didn't get that clear message about not raising salaries up to Swedish colleagues but I noticed at some point that I was severely underpaid given my experience and skills, even more after a couple of years and I started to hear from much more junior employees how much they were making.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#113
post #96
post #4

Imagine going into an environment suffering some serious performance issues adversely affecting the day-to-day operations of the business. From initial conversations it seems great. You're asked about how you'd handle, "difficult personalities" a fair bit, but aside from that, seems like you can add a ton of value. In your first days, you exhaustively quantitatively measure the entire operating environment, prioritiz…

I had this happen to me. Walked out after 2 months before completing 3 month trial period. I had a boss who said he is best developer in the world and he meant it. He caused major outage when the code he developed and brought to the company as an asset failed. The code was to exchange SMS messages with an SMS gateway for Ukrainian operator. The messages were sent using mails. That was 15 years ago and not his fault,…

>- when working for a Swedish company, when they extended my contract and said they are very happy to have me but they can't pay me the same rate as my Swedish colleagues (I am Polish).

Were you living in Poland or Sweden ? I kinda get that they'd want to pay less if you were living in Poland, considering the cost of living, but in Sweden that'd be scummy as shit.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#114

I really like this emphasis on trust. I have worked on “superstar” teams where people sabotaged each other at every turn. I have seen teams with a real mix of talent, sometimes pretty mediocre honestly, achieve amazing things because everyone just rows in the same direction.

My experience as well. The adage of the team working together being better than the sum of its parts is very true in my career.

I've worked in teams with absolutely no superstar, just very decent engineers that cared about delivery, the customer and code quality. We achieve a lot in very short time, very little friction, everyone respected everyone and, more than that, trusted each other to be doing their best on their parts. We communicated well, we had really good pairing and mob programming sessions and we discovered, defined and delivered a product together.

On the other hand I've worked in a few places with the kind of developer that could be considered the mythical "10x engineer", they could really deliver a lot by themselves but had no sense of team spirit, poor communication and availability to help others. Found parts of the process boring and would refuse to participate. Not extremely toxic but definitely not part of the "whole" and after a year or two of this they are much more of a drag to any product than an asset.

Once I worked with probably the smartest guy I've ever worked, who really cared about lifting others around him so he could work, in his words, for "his own obsolescence" in every project. He helped a whole company improve processes, ways of working and code quality, I do think that his contributions alone made the company at least twice as valuable after a year. And he didn't really care about that, he wanted to see people working happily, with as less obstacles as possible, and together. I miss him a lot.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#115
My boss once tried to reason his way out of a contract with me. When he couldn't, he simply said he just wasn't going to honour that clause in the contract.

It's amazing how you can annihilate years of built up trust in 3 seconds, by uttering that phrase, "I'm not going to honor it".

A week later he wanted to make an unrelated deal with me. I had of course decided to leave the company.

He was flabbergasted when I asked him if he would honour this new deal that he was offering.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#116
post #4

Imagine going into an environment suffering some serious performance issues adversely affecting the day-to-day operations of the business. From initial conversations it seems great. You're asked about how you'd handle, "difficult personalities" a fair bit, but aside from that, seems like you can add a ton of value. In your first days, you exhaustively quantitatively measure the entire operating environment, prioritiz…

I walked into a weird job environment not long ago.

First couple days were not that bad. Not particularly good, but nothing too bad. Like people weren't too friendly but neither too hostile.

There was, though, some casual heated discussion here and there. As I met some people more closely I began to see a trend: Everybody hated almost everybody else. One developer openly told me in our first conversation something like "You'll notice few people talk to me... Everyone hates me here.". Then somewhere else some shouting erupted for a few minutes, but nobody seemed to pay too much attention to it.

I saw someone get up from their desk, go to someone else and instead of normally asking whatever question they wanted to ask, start shouting their question. "How can it be that something something?!!! This is totally unacceptable!". Nobody even looked up from their screens or anything. It would turn out that was the way they always communicated.

We got a meeting with the whole team. Ah, no, not the whole team, just half of it. Why? - I asked. "Oh, we tried that but we can't have the whole team in one meeting because there are... conflicts and we end up not doing anything productive."

A few days later, I get called into a meeting with 6 other people, just to generally estimate a few tasks and discuss some of their details. After about two minutes or so, two people are arguing which ones are the tasks that we need to discuss. Things escalate and they are shouting while the rest watches calmly. I don't even know what to do or where to look because none seems to react at all to this. After some 15-20 minutes of this, the meeting is cancelled. People just stand up and return to their desks. I ask one of them if this is normal. "Yeah, pretty much."

I tried really hard and stayed there for more than 1 1/2 years. The only thing I have from all that is a lot of awful anecdotes about awful people.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#117

I haven't worked at many companies (only 4 during my 20+ years from late 90s until now) and while work at two was stressful (TV journalism and IT) with 'pushy' bosses, I've NEVER encountered any where the environment is truly toxic. And that includes working in different countries, private and public sector (University of California, for instance). I didn't hear too many horror stories either. However people keep tal…

perhaps you’re just privileged to have only worked with great people! one alternative might be that you’re a little toxic? who knows. doesn’t make everyone else’s lived experiences invalid :)

It certainly doesn't. My point is that truly toxic workplaces are very rare. I can't generalize my personal experience but my bet would be that an average person will never experience it (again, talking about developed world here with corporate culture and labor laws). Or, looking at it from the other end, most stories about toxic workplace may very well be overdramatization of things that are fairly normal. Here's an example - Basecamp is (or has been historically) a great employer. However, recently 30% of workforce has left due to a cultural dispute, which is totally fine. I can easily see how a person who has left Basecamp can interpret is as an act of leaving a toxic workplace even though there doesn't seem to be an evidence that it has ever been. Makes sense?

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#119

I haven't worked at many companies (only 4 during my 20+ years from late 90s until now) and while work at two was stressful (TV journalism and IT) with 'pushy' bosses, I've NEVER encountered any where the environment is truly toxic. And that includes working in different countries, private and public sector (University of California, for instance). I didn't hear too many horror stories either. However people keep tal…

> I haven't worked at many companies (only 4 during my 20+ years from late 90s until now)

You admit to this and then asks how you didn't see or hear more about it?

I worked for 8 companies in the past 16 years, across 2 different countries. From these 8 I'll exclude 2 of them that were very early-stage startups I joined to help some former colleagues or friends (the experience was great nonetheless but not representative).

From the other 6 I'd rate that 2 were really toxic, 2 were great and the remaining 2 were completely mixed, depending very much on what part (and/or team) of the company you worked at.

The toxicity ranges from: verbal (and once physical) abuse; constant gaslighting from higher management; immature (and hyper emotional) bosses and/or peers; C-level trying to use divide-and-conquer tactics, spreading false rumours about people talking about others behind their backs, making two teams work on the same feature and dumping the losers; immature management inducing micromanagement, to the point of scheduling HR meetings to berate people if they forgot to complete every 15 minutes time-slot of a timesheet; and so many more instances of toxicity.

You just get used to it at some places, it desensitises you, it's easy to cope by going numb. It doesn't need to happen constantly, just often enough to start to affect you mentally. At one place the toxicity was always in slow burn but after 2-3 years employees would drop like flies from burn out.

There are definitely a lot of toxic places and people around. I'm very glad you didn't have to experience it.

Re: How to survive a toxic workplace and how to avoid creating one

#120
post #4

Imagine going into an environment suffering some serious performance issues adversely affecting the day-to-day operations of the business. From initial conversations it seems great. You're asked about how you'd handle, "difficult personalities" a fair bit, but aside from that, seems like you can add a ton of value. In your first days, you exhaustively quantitatively measure the entire operating environment, prioritiz…

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Developers on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched monitors glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to resign.
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