FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#111

Post by leetcrew » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

dubcanada wrote: post #28

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

If you are going to provide any kind free or discounted health care, the best way to make that cheaper is to restrict people from doing damaging things. So ya healthcare.

it's entirely possible that smokers have lower lifetime healthcare costs due to living significantly shorter lives on average. they certainly draw less social security.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22449823/

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#112

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

jakeva wrote: post #51

nanidin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

But it's not. Smoking isn't contagious.

Ha, I hear this argument all the time and it’s actually completely wrong. All social behaviors are contagious. They do spread exponentially. Especially drug consumption / smoking.

Note: it’s not relevant but to be clear I oppose all drug bans (incl tobacco) and all the COVID restrictions. So don’t interpret my pointing out that social behaviors are contagious to be justifying the menthol ban.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#113

Post by atlasunshrugged » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #80

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to the government wanting to protect the health of folks (or if you're a cynic like me, making sure that citizens are productive for longer and don't use as many healthcare resources) but this feels super paternalistic. Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

1. Smoking citizens are - on average - productive until retirement, but use up much less pension money. So the cynical policy would be the opposite. 2. When you increase taxes you get smuggling and illegal dealing with all the violence it brings.

1. I'm skeptical as the age of retirement keeps going up. Have a source? 2. Agreed that's an issue in contexts with low rule of law but I think that's less of an issue here than say Ukraine/Russia/DRC where there is serious smuggling

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#114

Post by catillac » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #38

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Harm reduction? Why not ban alcohol? Why not cap cars at 55mph? People have lost money in the stock market, so I assume you'd like that banned as well. What is your limiting principle?

All of these things are okay in moderation and have some driving principle that weighs cost versus benefit. Same with cigarettes. Hugely harmful with a long tail of harmfulness and external effects on society with little or no gain. Seems like a good risk analysis to me in this case.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#115

Post by NeutronStar » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

nprz wrote: post #72

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Some how the democratic party is in favor of prohibiting the use of menthol cigarettes, but they're also in favor of legalizing marijuana? Very weird.

Because when they legalize marijuana they'll also pass a bunch of anti privacy laws. Watch here in Canada, since we can smoke marijuana legally they can arrest you without any probable cause.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#116

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #75

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

You can still buy tobacco, just not flavored with menthol. The war on drugs equivalent is that you can keep smoking crack, just not menthol crack.

[deleted]

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#117

Post by duped » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #37

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to the government wanting to protect the health of folks (or if you're a cynic like me, making sure that citizens are productive for longer and don't use as many healthcare resources) but this feels super paternalistic. Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

> Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to? If you increased the taxes enough to change behavior, that would imply that people who wanted to smoke were made unable to. If all the people who want Menthols after your tax increase can still afford them, then it would not stop them, by definition. Consequently, vice taxes are always either ineffectual, or…

> Consequently, vice taxes are always either ineffectual, or a ban that only applies to the poor.

A 10% increase in tobacco price results in a 4% decrease in tobacco demand: https://www.who.int/tobacco/economics/taxation/en/

I don't know if that counts as "ineffectual" in your book, but its not nothing.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#118

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #82

nprz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some how the democratic party is in favor of prohibiting the use of menthol cigarettes, but they're also in favor of legalizing marijuana? Very weird.

Tobacco is vastly more harmful than marijuana. I don't necessarily agree with the justification but I don't think these positions are inconsistent.

What is inconsistent is not banning alcohol, since it by far causes more harm than marijuana or menthol.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#119

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #32

At what point do we say that we've just given up on the concept of freedom? For what behaviors will we say: "That's a really bad idea, but go ahead and suffer the consequences if you want to do it"? It seems we are moving in the direction of zero consequences first. By the time you have medical bills from smoking too much, you're on medicare, so it's not coming out of your children's inheritance. And then after the c…

[deleted]

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#120

Post by dawnerd » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #32

At what point do we say that we've just given up on the concept of freedom? For what behaviors will we say: "That's a really bad idea, but go ahead and suffer the consequences if you want to do it"? It seems we are moving in the direction of zero consequences first. By the time you have medical bills from smoking too much, you're on medicare, so it's not coming out of your children's inheritance. And then after the c…

Freedoms are fine until companies are doing whatever they can to make something so addictive it's near impossible for someone to quit without suffering or spending lots of money.

It's not just a someone choses to smoke. It's they got hooked, usually by deceptive advertising or peer pressure.

Are you also against seatbelts? The police? Building codes?