The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion? • Hacker News Board

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#111

Post by kazoomonger » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #95

kazoomonger wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact that dominoes and animals and people appear to behave according to different rules The crux of the issue is that you're wrong here. Humans have this vanity that we're special, but we're really not. We behave according to the same rules, we're just relatively complex systems within those rules compared to dominoes. When most people think of "free will", what they actually mean is "unpredictability". That's…

“ Humans have this vanity that we're special, but we're really not.” How would one go about proving this statement. Hint: it’s impossible (by definition)

Not sure what you mean by that. If you're looking for a rigorous mathematical proof that humans obey the same laws of physics as everything else, I can't offer you one. However, the burden of proof is on someone asserting that humans are somehow special. I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#112

Post by w0de0 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #79

> “That’s free will: were you to rewind the tape of world history, to the instant just before you made your decision, with everything in the universe exactly the same, you’d have been able to make a different one.” Huh? Why? Shouldn't it be the opposite? As much as I have a personal will, I will continue to will the same thing if we replay the situation -- all other things being exactly the same. I don't chose someth…

This is not an argument for the existence free will. I think it’s an argument that free will’s absence is no loss, since the deterministic choices of humans are expressions of unique paths of their consciousness in space time. Uniqueness as a salve on the painful claim that one is deterministically driven to always order the Big Mac.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#113

Post by w0de0 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #106

nefitty wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I hallucinate prismatic shapes overlaying everything, it does not follow that there is some non-physical phenomenon which is responsible. “It is obvious that the world is covered in prisms. It’s obvious that those prisms don’t fit in my eyeballs, therefore the entire scientific edifice is mistaken and we need a metaphysical explanation for my experience.”

Comparing free will to a hallucination isn’t helpful because everyone knows the difference and has experienced them.

No, actually, that’s the point they allude to: that free will might be an illusion, a hallucination.

No one denies the lived experience of free will, the inquiry into it asks if we can quantify that qualia without resorting to complete determinism.

If we can’t, it is perhaps an illusion. There is ample precedent for lived experience being an illusory lie told to our minds by our brains - visual hallucinations are the closest example to hand.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#114

Post by unknown_apostle » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #77

unknown_apostle wrote: post #38

I personally find it highly likely that the decision mechanism emerges from physical computation in the brain. However, when we talk about decision mechanisms, we inevitably introduce the question of whether this decision mechanism can work better or worse. “Free will” may be seen as a computational notion of “health” for this decision mechanism, similar to how we use the term health for our physical bodies. A free w…

> A free will is a healthy will, in the sense that our decision mechanism is not broken by e.g. drugs, electrodes or mental illness. Isn't the drug example a contradiction? If my brain was healthy ("free") when I decided to take drugs, why would the resulting drugged state be less "free"? After all, it was my "free" choice to take the drugs and alter my mental state. Edit: Also the definition of "mental illness" is s…

Consider hypnotics used during light medical procedures to keep you awake but compliant. From a state of more freedom you can freely choose to enter a state of arguably less freedom. Why would this be a contradiction?

> Edit: Also the definition of "mental illness" is somewhat nebulous and not historically fixed. Homosexuality was at one point called a mental illness.

Yep, insights and definitions of illness will keep changing. But while insights in the details of e.g. psychosis may vary, few would deny a correlation with chemical issues.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#115

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

kazoomonger wrote: post #111

mensetmanusman wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ Humans have this vanity that we're special, but we're really not.” How would one go about proving this statement. Hint: it’s impossible (by definition)

Not sure what you mean by that. If you're looking for a rigorous mathematical proof that humans obey the same laws of physics as everything else, I can't offer you one. However, the burden of proof is on someone asserting that humans are somehow special. I'll believe it when I see it.

In this case the choice of axioms would dictate who holds the burden of proof. The choice of axioms is an act of faith since they can’t be proven.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#116

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

w0de0 wrote: post #113

mensetmanusman wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing free will to a hallucination isn’t helpful because everyone knows the difference and has experienced them.

No, actually, that’s the point they allude to: that free will might be an illusion, a hallucination. No one denies the lived experience of free will, the inquiry into it asks if we can quantify that qualia without resorting to complete determinism. If we can’t, it is perhaps an illusion. There is ample precedent for lived experience being an illusory lie told to our minds by our brains - visual hallucinations are the…

Beings without free will can’t prove anything though since the verbs available to a being without free will is an empty set, and passive descriptions are more apt.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#117

Post by w0de0 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #116

w0de0 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually, that’s the point they allude to: that free will might be an illusion, a hallucination. No one denies the lived experience of free will, the inquiry into it asks if we can quantify that qualia without resorting to complete determinism. If we can’t, it is perhaps an illusion. There is ample precedent for lived experience being an illusory lie told to our minds by our brains - visual hallucinations are the…

Beings without free will can’t prove anything though since the verbs available to a being without free will is an empty set, and passive descriptions are more apt.

I don’t think free will and autonomous action as described by a verb are equivalent.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#118

Post by _y5hn » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

uniqueid wrote: post #85

_y5hn wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are just statistics or hypotheticals. It's only facts after the action is made.

It's only facts after the action is made. My understanding of Many Worlds is probably wrong then. I assumed that every outcome exists (every possible world in the — relative to you right now — past, present, and future), and that any particular outcome is only 'special' to the copy of you in that universe.

Sounds hypothetical ;)

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#119

Post by andrei_says_ » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #51

andrei_says_ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free from what? If one has will to choose based on a preference is the will free from having that preference? Was the preference chosen?

Free from stepping into an obvious hole in front of you. Free to smash particles at high speed. It's all relative.

I don’t remember choosing to acquire the preference to avoid stepping into a hole or falling down the stairs.

I was born preferring to avoid danger and pain. It was never a free choice.

I have not yet observed a choice that is independent or free.

Re: The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

#120

Post by kazoomonger » Wed, May 05, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #115

kazoomonger wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean by that. If you're looking for a rigorous mathematical proof that humans obey the same laws of physics as everything else, I can't offer you one. However, the burden of proof is on someone asserting that humans are somehow special. I'll believe it when I see it.

In this case the choice of axioms would dictate who holds the burden of proof. The choice of axioms is an act of faith since they can’t be proven.

In a theoretical vacuum, maybe. However we've done a fair amount of exploring ourselves and the way we work, and we haven't found a soul yet. Asserting that humans are somehow special requires explaining the lack of any supporting evidence.

This is a variant of the god-of-the-gaps argument, which is not turning out well for proponents of religion, as those gaps keep getting smaller and smaller. Again, I'll believe it when I see it.