Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

jabberwocking.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 203 posts

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#111

Post by matheusmoreira »

paxys wrote: post #99
matheusmoreira wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would pay and get paid using monero. It's everything bitcoin was supposed to be.

> I would pay and get paid using monero If you agreed to work for a company for X monero a month, and the value of monero (relative to USD or your local currency) dropped by 90% a few months later, would you continue to work at the originally agreed upon rate? And on the opposite end, if a coffee shop sold lattes for Y monero, would you be okay with continuing to pay Y if monero shot up by 1000%?

No, I'd raise the XMR price for my services. We still need fiat in order to pay for everyday things.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#112

Post by rawtxapp »

Spivak wrote: post #92
rawtxapp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like beating a dead horse, but there's tons of L2 technologies at this point, lightning payment channels or rollups on eth, etc. The blockchain itself is like a settlement layer. Our current financial system is also layered similarly btw. When you buy something with your credit card, it doesn't settle right away.

But then the issue is that the settlement layer becomes an arbitrary implementation detail. The second layer is the thing that really matters. The settlement can happen in dollars or some stock in a portfolio of assets like what Libra wanted to do. Is Bitcoin the best thing to use as an settlement layer?

The 2nd layer always maps to the settlement layer as in you're still transacting in Bitcoin, you just don't broadcast the signed transactions to the whole network because you expect to continue your transactions.

You can use eth or any of the thousands of other crypto-currencies, Bitcoin benefits from being the most secure and also having the largest network effects due to being the earliest. When it comes to money, security is the most important thing and Bitcoin offers the most secure settlement layer.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#113

Post by DubiousPusher »

the_local_host wrote: post #105
cyphertruck wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacklisting doesn’t change fungibility. It just means some exchanges are refusing to do business with people who believe in privacy. A government can scream and shout but they cannot block a bitcoin transaction.

Blacklisting definitely changes fungibility. Some bitcoins are different than others, because of their history.

Why? If cash is stolen it becomes tainted. If it becomes too damaged for circulation it is no longer spendable. We don't then say this makes paper currency not fungible.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#114

Post by dagmx »

pfisch wrote: post #107
fny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question: how many people do you know that buy crypto intend to spend it? You know, use it like currency? Or are they all just HODLing in the hopes that some other buyer will come along who believes it will become a medium of exchange? In my view, it's not a currency until people stop speculating and start using it like a currency. So yes, it's a collectible with ridiculously high transaction costs that make…

Now apply that logic to gold.

Gold is a usable, consumable product.

Unlike Bitcoin, the value of gold in a given market has a tangible backing that isn't purely speculative.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#116

Post by mrpopo »

cyphertruck wrote: post #96
mrpopo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand, certain people really hate bitcoin— and fir good reason. Bitcoin will eventually obsolete the fiat inflation system which has created all the wealth inequality in much of the world. The system that lets politicians buy power and escape responsibility for violating rights. What part of Bitcoin abolishes corruption, power-grabbing and bribes? How would it fix anything you accuse the current system of? A…

When you cannot rob from the poor via inflation then it becomes harder to oppress them. The Great Depression was caused by the government making gold illegal, effectively confiscating the nations wealth and replacing it with massive fiat inflation. It was a period of monetary inflation that caused and economic contraction. One if the ways inflation is used to indoctrinate people against their best interests is demoni…

> The Great Depression was caused by the government making gold illegal

Look, I'm not going to try to convince you. You're trying to protect your assets by denying reality, maybe you have a family to feed, maybe you just want to go to the moon, whatever.

For everyone else, I invite you to study history. The depression happened before anyone touched the gold standard. Countries that abandoned the gold standard earlier have recovered faster. Don't believe me, please read books.

Other important note. You can become rich with Bitcoin, yes. Being richer doesn't make you smarter.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#117

Post by swensel »

Spivak wrote: post #92
rawtxapp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like beating a dead horse, but there's tons of L2 technologies at this point, lightning payment channels or rollups on eth, etc. The blockchain itself is like a settlement layer. Our current financial system is also layered similarly btw. When you buy something with your credit card, it doesn't settle right away.

But then the issue is that the settlement layer becomes an arbitrary implementation detail. The second layer is the thing that really matters. The settlement can happen in dollars or some stock in a portfolio of assets like what Libra wanted to do. Is Bitcoin the best thing to use as an settlement layer?

If a credit card is the example of a layer 2, with dollars being the base layer, would you say that dollars don't matter then, and the only thing that matters is the layer 2?

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#118

Post by omegant »

chii wrote: post #67
zbraniecki wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a rationalization of an emotional argument. Gold's current value is not related to its function as a material for jewelry, but from a myth that it is a store of value. If people would stop believing the myth, the cost of gold would plummet and stabilize around the value it provides as a material for jewelry. Similarly, "art is lovely" is a really stretched argument. If you want, you could print your t…

> If people would stop believing the myth imagine if tomorrow, we suddenly find ourselves mining gold from asteroids, and that gold suddenly became super-abundant. Would the price of gold drop to match just the material usage value (e.g., for jewellery and electronics)?

It has happened before, aluminum is a good example.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#119

Post by matheusmoreira »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #108
matheusmoreira wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on. It's possible to trace every wallet a coin passed through. If your coin ever passed a blacklisted address, it's tainted and nobody will accept it. Exchanges are already rejecting deposits containing coins that passed through mixing services. Monero is fungible because it's private. Every transaction is signed by lots of users and nobody can tell where the coins are actually coming from. There's no way…

Fungibility implies interchangeability not privacy.

In monero's case, the blockchain privacy is what provides fungibility. The fact nobody knows where the coins are coming from makes them interchangeable.

Re: Bitcoin has few attributes of money but all the attributes of a collectible

#120

Post by nathias »

rapsey wrote: post #94
rawtxapp wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll start spending it when it's value stabilizes and that won't happen until it either "wins" as in becomes the global reserve currency or "loses" as in becomes worthless. If it were to freeze at it's current price, it would only be able to power a very small economy of 1T$, that's nothing considering it's borderless and digital.

So you will never spend it. What gives currencies relative stability is central banks. It will never become a global reserve currency for the same reason gold is no longer a basis for money. It is better to inflate your way out of problems (print money to bail out key institutions) than to deflate your way out of them (great depression). Better is defined as causing less harm to individuals.

Inflation is a form of tax, or rather a corporate handout, it transfers value from the poor to the rich. I have no problem taking on the risk of volatility to help destroy it. It can also be mitigated with implementation of different monetary policies, inflation is not the only mechanism that can be used.
Post reply on HN