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Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

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Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#111

Post by caseysoftware »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #55
caseysoftware wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to McDonald's employees, probably. Compared to other actual technical jobs, like electrician, I can't imagine. When someone has few work skills - as noted in the article - do they more closely resemble a McDonald's employee or an electrician? Yes, people with low/no skills and little/no experience tend to start in crap roles. Some people will not further their skills, abilities, or knowledge and stay there…

Tell me - are there any possibilities of advancement in today's streamlined datacenter job? In the past, someone eager and capable might have been given training opportunities, but that doesn't really exist any longer, does it?

Nope, doesn't look like it. Google is screwing over tons of people here and obviously they're not alone.

Why do we "trust" them again?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#112

Post by thethethethe »

plank_time wrote: post #94

I’m getting tired of these low-value workers complaining they should be paid as well as high-value workers. They were hired with no skills, and were trained from the ground up. They are getting a livable wage but now they want more. If they want more, they need to elevate their worth and become high value employees or find a better job that values them better. They are contractors. Because of their particular life ex…

To me, it sounds as though these people want to be treated fairly and with humanity. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that businesses in our society treat people as investments and give opportunities for upward mobility, not fire them every two years and pay them half as much as their counterparts who do the same job but wear a different color badge.

I work for Google, opinions are my own.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#113

Post by kodah »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #106
jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

There's a very clear explanation in the article about the reason for this from an employment attorney. It's necessary so that Google can falsely classify these workers as non-employees. Under existing IRS guidelines, a company can't arbitrarily determine which workers are full employees and which are contractors. The business has to be able to prove when a worker meets certain key legal definitions about contract wor…

It is federal law that makes them do this, but it's also because they are in fact using contractors for full time work, they're just doing the bare minimum to separate the two.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#114

Post by frankbreetz »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #106
jasode wrote: post #13

>Contractors love the good pay and engaging work in Google's data centers. They resent that Google and its staffing firm, Modis Engineering, make them quit every two years. >[...] But those two-year contracts are written in stone. Workers like Wait are not usually allowed to apply either to renew their contracts or to do the same job as a Google employee. If they want to keep working in the same job, they have to lea…

There's a very clear explanation in the article about the reason for this from an employment attorney. It's necessary so that Google can falsely classify these workers as non-employees. Under existing IRS guidelines, a company can't arbitrarily determine which workers are full employees and which are contractors. The business has to be able to prove when a worker meets certain key legal definitions about contract wor…

but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? Isn't starting as a contractor and being brought on as an fte common practice?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#115

Post by hirsin »

ketamine__ wrote: post #88
dcolkitt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

> Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I've heard this mentioned a lot but how often does it happen and how much of a risk is it? Employees developing IP in personal time doesn't seem like it would be that common.

"This project happens to be owned by Google" is common for a reason.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#116

Post by username90 »

caseysoftware wrote: post #111
HarryHirsch wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me - are there any possibilities of advancement in today's streamlined datacenter job? In the past, someone eager and capable might have been given training opportunities, but that doesn't really exist any longer, does it?

Nope, doesn't look like it. Google is screwing over tons of people here and obviously they're not alone. Why do we "trust" them again?

Training unskilled workers and giving them normal professional worker wages is screwing them over how? It isn't like they would be better off at mcdonalds.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#118

Post by GuB-42 »

dcolkitt wrote: post #53
taurath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right thing for the company to do would be to hire people as employees, but it appears that worker protections are too strong for them to want to financially. Universal healthcare/dental/paid leave would allow for companies who’s employees currently are the only receivers of these “benefits” to not require companies to hold onto people so long. Worker protections are supposed to be so that catastrophic job loss i…

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

There is no single way of doing contract work. And the kind of thing Google does provide very little benefit to the contractor vs an employee.

I don't know how it is in the US but we have the same issues in France.

The law is called "délit de marchandage" and what it means, essentially, is that a contractor is treated like an employee but without the benefits of an employee.

The idea of the law is that contract work is fine, but the contractor has to stay independent. For example, if I want to have an Indian do the work for me, that's my right as a contractor, my only obligation is to deliver what we agreed upon in the contract. Obviously, it is not always practical, I may want to hire a consultant for a specific task because I don't have the expertise and it is not worth hiring someone for just that one task. That's where the 2 years rule comes from. If I have to hire a consultant, full time, for 2 years, then it is not just a mission anymore and I need to hire an employee.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#119

Post by geodel »

rtkwe wrote: post #73
geodel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is such an odd country. I guess this is why no one want to come to US to work as contractors.

People taking a deal doesn’t mean it’s not exploitative, it just means it’s enough of an improvement (or the downsides of not taking it are bad enough) [0] that people take the deal. Indentured servitude was for some a willingly taken deal but that doesn’t mean it’s something we should bring back as a common, endorsed arrangement... [0] In the US not working is a shitty way to live.

> or the downsides of not taking it are bad enough

Crucial point is are the bad enough or worse than taking a deal.

I'd say we should shut up and work to create better deal for workers , instead of just telling people that "you do not know you are so exploited". To me it is no better than telling people "Just be lucky" or "Just be rich"

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#120

Post by username90 »

thethethethe wrote: post #112
plank_time wrote: post #94

I’m getting tired of these low-value workers complaining they should be paid as well as high-value workers. They were hired with no skills, and were trained from the ground up. They are getting a livable wage but now they want more. If they want more, they need to elevate their worth and become high value employees or find a better job that values them better. They are contractors. Because of their particular life ex…

To me, it sounds as though these people want to be treated fairly and with humanity. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that businesses in our society treat people as investments and give opportunities for upward mobility, not fire them every two years and pay them half as much as their counterparts who do the same job but wear a different color badge. I work for Google, opinions are my own.

You are right it is unfair. So now Google decides to hire everyone and pay everyone the same $12 an hour + full time benefits. That would make everyone happy, no?
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