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Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#111

Post by kspacewalk2 »

joakleaf wrote: post #41
alkonaut wrote: post #3

Not giving it to 65+ people seems overly cautious. There are zero cases in that group and even just a small delay will mean many dead. This is trading a potential unlikely side effect for a large number of severe Covid cases in high risk groups. Edit: yes I'm aware they have only a dozen or so dead per week but that also translates to hundreds of severe cases, missed elective surgeries, etc. For what would most likel…

The 65+ group are to a large extend already vaccinated or have begun vaccinations with other vaccines in Denmark. The expected overall delay from not using AstraZeneca until all adults have been vaccinated is 3-4 weeks. Current death rate in Denmark is 2/day. Population 5.8 Million.

Sounds like a while lot more deaths than potential clot cases (not to mention clot deaths, which might be zero in a population that small).

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#113

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

Tenoke wrote: post #69
londons_explore wrote: post #53

This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. Which then raises the question, why did these professionals make a decision so different than the "obvious" opinion here?

Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

> Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

We are talking about science, I thought. Phrases like "obviously good," really are not in the scientific spirit.

Professionals also said that double-masking is even more obviously, obviously good. But that obvious obviousness was, quite obviously, wrong. [0]

[0] https://dossier.substack.com/p/the-cdcs-double-mask-mannequi...

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#114

Post by hjek »

joakleaf wrote: post #95
mellosouls wrote: post #8

This seems like another overreaction that will be interpreted - rightly or wrongly - in the UK in political (Brexit) terms rather than medical or scientific (although they are clearly an important consideration). It's difficult to see how Denmark isn't failing its population with this decision.

It is about picking a safer and possibly better alternative costing a few weeks delay. In Denmark, at least among the people I talk to, there isn't much confidence in AZ. The feeling is that Moderna or Pfizer are safer with higher protection (also against mutations). So the common feeling here is really that the government would fail the population by using AZ instead of the (possibly better) alternatives.

Also, like it or not, the anti-vax pro-corona[0] movement is relatively large here, so using a vaccine that has possible fatal side-effects may give momentum to that movement, even if using it could save lives from a utilitarian point of view.

[0] One of their slogans is literally "Corona, yes please! The virus isn't dangerous." https://www.ooc.one/

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#115

Post by akie »

hyko wrote: post #101
akie wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would also help is if the UK and the US would export vaccine to other countries, like the rest of the world does. Sharing is caring? EDIT: https://www.statista.com/chart/24555/vaccine-doses-produced-...

Well...not really. The UK manufacturing capacity is tiny from a global perspective. The EU tried to scapegoat the UK for their failure to run an efficient procurement, but that was just irrational politicking. The U.S. obviously has more manufacturing capacity, but like the UK it basically has no chance of dealing with the pandemic without mass vaccination, so exports are a political non starter. What was really requ…

> so exports are a political non-starter

...in the US and the UK. In the end it's also a reflection of what is important to a nation. Should the strong help the weak? Is it every man for themselves? Thank you for making my point.

I think pointing to "international organizations" to do something, when you could have done something yourself, is a weak argument.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#116

Post by hef19898 »

marvin wrote: post #104
gms7777 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.

This would be correct if Covid was very widespread in Denmark, most of the at-risk >65 population wasn't vaccinated already and there weren't alternatives available very shortly. But none of these are true, so the overall ethical decision becomes more complicated than that. It's fallacious to describe this as an instance of the trolley problem, as there's also the public's trust in vaccines to consider. You'll see th…

Decsions like that undermine trust. Now scepical people can point at Denmark and say: "See, it is dangerous, I don't take it" Because nobody will take time to understand how and why Denmark came to that conclusion. Not in a time where people are happy only reading half of a headline.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#117

Post by kspacewalk2 »

RobertoG wrote: post #94
zpeti wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pandemic is basically this entire story. COVID deaths are much more visible than the missed cancers, the depression and drug abuse caused by lockdowns, so basically it’s an easy choice for governments, lockdowns are better politically.

That argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It assumes that the numbers caused by the lock-downs are bigger than the numbers caused by Covid. It assumes that there is not positives to the lock-downs (maybe some people is less depressed at home than at their work, not deaths by flu, etc..) and, most important, it assumes that not lock-downs would not increase deaths by other causes (intensive care overworked).

The number of deaths due to missed TB vaccinations alone will be a very substantial percentage of number of COVID deaths.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#118

Post by lukasLansky »

zpeti wrote: post #77
eloff wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

This pandemic is basically this entire story. COVID deaths are much more visible than the missed cancers, the depression and drug abuse caused by lockdowns, so basically it’s an easy choice for governments, lockdowns are better politically.

That is a narrative that misses the point of the thread and is generally not compatible with hard data. For example, the amount of suicides in US during 2020 went down.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#119

Post by silon42 »

alkonaut wrote: post #3

Not giving it to 65+ people seems overly cautious. There are zero cases in that group and even just a small delay will mean many dead. This is trading a potential unlikely side effect for a large number of severe Covid cases in high risk groups. Edit: yes I'm aware they have only a dozen or so dead per week but that also translates to hundreds of severe cases, missed elective surgeries, etc. For what would most likel…

For now, I agree, probably best to keep using it. But if turns out there is need to re-vaccinate yearly (2x again), the decision is not as obvious.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#120

Post by dTal »

hntroll666 wrote: post #70
londons_explore wrote: post #53

This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. Which then raises the question, why did these professionals make a decision so different than the "obvious" opinion here?

I appreciate this gentle style of cult deprogramming.

Please take your political crusade somewhere else, "hntroll666".
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