MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#111

Post by rychco » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents: (a) Straight As (b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school (c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college…

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.”

If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d).

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#112

Post by pdonis » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

currymj wrote: post #60

The 25th percentile student at MIT gets a 790 math SAT, it's 730 for language. Difference between 790 and 800 is basically luck. It's at the point where the test can only hurt you not help you. There's no upside, but if you don't prepare, or happen to have a bad day, it can ruin your chances. For students applying to MIT-caliber schools it's a hoop to jump through, not an opportunity to distinguish themselves. I am h…

> I am honestly curious how the MIT admissions office is able to use the SAT to predict anything about student success, given a huge majority of the students got a nearly perfect score.

A huge majority of the students who got accepted (since those are the only ones you're looking at) got a nearly perfect score. But only about 7% of students who apply to MIT get accepted. SAT scores, back when they were required to be provided, were one of the primary filters on applicants. (Not to mention the "filter" of many kids not even applying because they knew their scores were too low for them to be considered.)

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#113

Post by solatic » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

Unfortunately it's not really possible to measure intellectual merit in a standardized way without inadvertently also selecting for children of wealthier backgrounds. Standardized testing ultimately needs to be formulaic in nature in order to produce comparable scores. As long as the test is formulaic, it will be possible to purchase test preparation services that essentially teach you the formula. Test preparation services are purchased by people of means; their children confound the test score's signal of intellectual merit with a signal of test preparatory ability. The more elite the institution, the narrower the range of acceptable test scores, the more that the score signals test preparation rather than intellectual merit.

For any sufficiently in-demand institution, a healthier approach would be to define a minimum bar ahead of time, accept applications only from students who meet the bar, then select applicants by lottery from the pool according to available openings. Ultimately, selecting for perfect and near-perfect scores is actually counterproductive - Goodhart's Law is as applicable as ever.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#114

Post by Natsu » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #72

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

It can be permanent. In addition to the effort of removing standard tests, education reforms are happening left and right. San Francisco school union recently decided to remove fast tracks. The union will also delay the teaching of geometry to grade 9, which IMHO will make teaching physics and algebra really hard. I can understand that the motivation of such reform is to improve equity, as numerous studies have shown…

I think we'll actually see more of a divide as those who are motivated to study on their own go through online programs like OCW and use that knowledge to do impressive things in lieu of credentialing themselves (though they may also leverage the impressive things to get credentials).

The hard part will be that the poorer folks won't have the same luxury of free time to study like this.

So in the end I'm not sure that we'll really escape from Matthew's Law ("the rich get richer and the poor get poorer").

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#115

Post by TechBro8615 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

MIT already has enough applicants with close to perfect SAT scores that they could fill their class multiple times over. So this is a bit of a meaningless differentiator and tbh might even negatively affect someone who e.g. has below average grades but tests well.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#116

Post by kansface » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #23

So many university recruiters at that level just suggest a minimum application criteria after which a lottery is applied to select acceptable applicants. A truly randomized lottery would ensure no bias in student selection. If you have, let’s say, 3000 open positions and 15,000 applications of which all are academically qualified does it really matter who they pick for admission? It’s not like there is going to be an…

Being the valedictorian of a class of 12 brings less information than a class of 1K. Its the same story for the rigor of the classes themselves between different schools/states/countries and the actual classes taken by any given student. Getting As in all AP classes carries more information than all As in easy courses. Its really nice to have an aptitude test to select the students you think have the best shot of succeeding or the brightest kids. An aptitude test is also an avenue to select bright kids who went to really bad schools or didn't do well in school for some reason.

You can't throw away information and expect a better outcome.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#117

Post by underpand » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents: (a) Straight As (b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school (c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college…

> I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents:

I don't think the difference between dedicated tutors and individual studying with Khan Academy is a large difference. The majority of low scorers score low because they're either lower on the intelligence scale or didn't spend time individually studying.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#118

Post by TechBro8615 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

nickysielicki wrote: post #61

> Students who have not already taken the SAT/ACT, and cannot find a forthcoming opportunity to do so safely are discouraged from taking the test, in order to protect their personal health, as well as the health of their family and community. We will not make any negative presumptions regarding academic preparation based solely on the absence of SAT/ACT scores, but will instead make the best, most informed decision w…

That's never been enough by itself to get into MIT. This just gives them more cover to be even more biased.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#119

Post by chris11 » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

floren wrote: post #64

ericmay wrote: post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

I did well on the SAT and ACT, but one problem is that it's just not enough. Parents who shove their kids into piano and tennis lessons since age 4, push them to run for student government and take petitions to the city council, whatever, those parents are also going to make their kids spend every evening studying for the SAT. They've also had tutors when they need it. How does Harvard tell the difference between "th…

Harvard could easily do that. They have financial info on the parents family.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#120

Post by helen___keller » Tue, Apr 06, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

option wrote: post #82

helen___keller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents: (a) Straight As (b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school (c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college…

yeah, try finding good “free” math club when kid is 6-7 y.o. And by the time there are actually viable free options the kids are already far behind. Preparing for tests are much cheaper than joining good clubs and/or preparing to write a food essays

I'm not sure I understand your point. GP was looking for how an applicant who is smart but not privileged can show how they are smart, so that's what I was listing. Literally, what I did in high school. I joined the math team and went to competitions. When my school didn't have the funding or interest to go to regional competitions, I managed to get myself signed up as a team of 1 representing my school and hitch a ride with a neighboring school.