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The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#111

Post by vbtemp »

z5h wrote: post #66
vbtemp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are spot on. I also think much of the "anti-science" right is a reaction to the "anti-science" left, which has lots of ideologies that cannot be defended by pure reason alone, and need to be defended instead by online angry mobs. Whether it's to do with social issues (crime, racial issues, gender issues, abortion, immigration, etc), pop ideas today are defended by a "how dare you" if you are not in the mo…

More than a reaction. Any agendaist who opposes science also makes it easier for other agendaists to oppose science. Their methodologies are essentially open source! I get in many arguements with friends and loved ones, not because I disagree with what their agenda represents, but because their methods are problematic. It’s very hard for someone not to take it as an attack of their values.

I may misunderstand, but I read it this way: The "pro-science" team is so obviously and transparently hypocritical and self-serving in their use of logic, become extremely defensive to any kind of criticism, and basically resort to name-calling ("they're stupid") anyone out side of the bubble.

This basically sets the scene that anyone can make any logic work and no one really needs to really think anything through - it's all just window dressing for the agenda. We act like it's only Trump that does it but he's just goofiest-looking, that's all.

I thought it was really funny in the picture accompanying the article, an anti-vaxer waved a sign that said something like "Respect my bodily autonomy" - we know where that kind of logic came from. Also, since that group was clearly anti-abortion, we knew it was just really poking fun at the "window dressing" logic that of pro-choicers that it is really about "autonomy".

I believe at the end of the day we've entered the phase of words mean nothing any more, we all just have our agendas, we want what we want, and we'll all just wrap it in whatever bullshit we want.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#112

Post by HonestOp001 »

dqpb wrote: post #44
StavrosK wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

I’ve found it very hard to find the original news sources saying not to wear masks, despite remembering how prevalent that messaging was.

Then look at astral codex for the matter, he called it out as a noble lie and had the documentation.

The larger issue is how the “science” changed on the whim of the politically expedience of it all.

Look at hydroflouriquine, the drug is perfectly safe, a politico said it was good and wham, just like that opposing political parties say that the doctors cannot use it. The trained medical professionals whose judgment in time of crises are now told by politicians at state levels to not prescribe something. We have lost our minds and the singularity cannot come fast enough.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#113

Post by w4rh4wk5 »

mdpopescu wrote: post #80
w4rh4wk5 wrote: post #16

How about we just take away their phones. Without science there wouldn't be any anyway.

Name three scientific papers (that you have studied) that contributed to mobile phones.

What I was getting at is that the whole field of electronics would not even exist without science. No computers, no phones, maybe a tiny bit of electricity... Pretty much our whole standard of living exists due to advances in science. If people don't recognize and respect this, they should not enjoy their current living standards --- i.e. not having phones.

I suspect/hope they'd reconsider their thoughts.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#114

Post by kodah »

psychiatrist24 wrote: post #97
joshspankit wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answers to this are so numerous and the logic so obvious that we as citizens may be to close to even see them. Pretty much every bit of advice in the health sciences has been changing over multiple generations (lead and xrays are two easy examples from over 50 years ago)

But if you have witnessed that, wouldn't it be prudent to remain doubtful about any new advice coming from the field? After all, the probability of it being thrown out in the future seems to be almost 100%?

Read some Feynman and I think it'll open your eyes. You could certainly engage with the fatalist nature of some of his writing, but it basically means we're always on an iterative journey of refining our position. The way I read it is that "science" is not a thing to believe in, it's merely a practice or process. You either believe the scrupulousness with the data we have today or you can guess about what will be next, but that doesn't really invalidate today's stance until it does.

Thoroughly confused? Welcome to science.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#115

Post by bad_username »

StavrosK wrote: post #40
dilap wrote: post #27

This conflates "official positions of authorities" with "science". It's like a modern religion, with three tenets: (1) science made everything around us (iPhones and airplanes!) (2) we speak for science (3) therefore you must believe our conclusions. But in fact, that's the opposite of a proper scientific attitude, which always admits doubt, and believes experiment over authority. As for why authorities are increasin…

The mask thing was a Noble Lie to prevent PPE shortages: https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/yes-experts-will-lie-to-yo... I agree that that erodes trust, but it was for "a reason".

An intentionally false statement from an authority on a current event of extreme importance, no matter how noble, is extremely counterproductive, even if we leave aside moral aspects. Indeed, it will cause further statements from the authority be perceived by the public as another potential lie. Since this seems very obvious to me, I can not believe it was a "white lie".

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#116

Post by psychiatrist24 »

kodah wrote: post #114
psychiatrist24 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have witnessed that, wouldn't it be prudent to remain doubtful about any new advice coming from the field? After all, the probability of it being thrown out in the future seems to be almost 100%?

Read some Feynman and I think it'll open your eyes. You could certainly engage with the fatalist nature of some of his writing, but it basically means we're always on an iterative journey of refining our position. The way I read it is that "science" is not a thing to believe in, it's merely a practice or process. You either believe the scrupulousness with the data we have today or you can guess about what will be nex…

With physics perhaps it is refinement, but the example of the OP was diet, wasn't it? Changing from "fat is bad" to "fat is healthy" or whatever is not refining or iterating.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#117

Post by psychiatrist24 »

orev wrote: post #102
psychiatrist24 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have witnessed that, wouldn't it be prudent to remain doubtful about any new advice coming from the field? After all, the probability of it being thrown out in the future seems to be almost 100%?

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of science. Science is a process , not a library of knowledge. You do the best you can with the info you have right now. Every time science changes, it means it’s getting better. Anything else is religion — wanting to have a single unchanging answer forever. That’s the appeal of religion, and in the short term it might make you feel better, but in the long term it cannot adapt…

But you mentioned things that were flat out wrong or harmful. I think the fundamental misunderstanding is that scientism is science.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#119

Post by tzs »

Udik wrote: post #47
GavinMcG wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're talking about certain subjects being more prevalent in left- or right-wing communities. That's different from making opposition to science a political priority. Yeah, there's kooks on the left who go for healing crystals–but that's not incorporated into left politics. On the other hand, elected Republicans have actively fought in the political arena against climate issues being taken seriously. This sh…

> elected Republicans have actively fought in the political arena against climate issues being taken seriously. Climate science ended mixing up entirely with left wing ideology: de-growth movements, anti-nuclearists, anti-capitalist, etc. First they appropriate whatever they need from scientific discourse to support their agenda, then they denounce everyone who is against their agenda as "anti-science".

What makes Republicans deserve denunciation as anti-science on climate change is not their rejection of left wing solutions. It is their rejection of right wing solutions, too.

There are conservatives working to address climate change. Here was a plan [1] from a bunch of people who were prominent members of the Nixon, Reagan, and Bush administrations, for example. It's economically and scientifically sound. Good luck getting Republicans currently in Congress to even consider that.

[1] https://www.clcouncil.org/media/2017/03/The-Conservative-Cas...

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#120

Post by joshspankit »

psychiatrist24 wrote: post #116
kodah wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read some Feynman and I think it'll open your eyes. You could certainly engage with the fatalist nature of some of his writing, but it basically means we're always on an iterative journey of refining our position. The way I read it is that "science" is not a thing to believe in, it's merely a practice or process. You either believe the scrupulousness with the data we have today or you can guess about what will be nex…

With physics perhaps it is refinement, but the example of the OP was diet, wasn't it? Changing from "fat is bad" to "fat is healthy" or whatever is not refining or iterating.

I missed where the example was diet, but even there:

Old science said “we observe that people who eat excess fat die younger, therefore we conclude that fat is bad”

Later, science said “Now that we understand more about the body, we now know that we need a certain amount of fat to live because among other things our brains are made of fat and we efficiently use fat as fuel. We have also found that there are different types of fat and that some people process each type differently. In addition, the previous conclusion was too broad. Those people who died younger also had inactive lifestyles and ate mainly processed food that’s full of sugar so we threw out most of that old data and started over with a better method. We have now observed that people who consume only healthy fats live longer than people who don’t. Therefore we conclude that a certain amount of healthy fat is good for you.”

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