The dispassionate developer • Hacker News Board

Re: The dispassionate developer

#111

Post by ofrzeta » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

portoal wrote: post #104

ofrzeta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We spent some time on making up a quite simple project with a readme about the tasks to be implemented. It's something that can be done in half an hour when you are fast and we always thought we need to make it a bit harder. Turns out it's good enough to weed out quite many people who can't keep a deadline or don't get their shit together in other ways. From reviewing the code you can judge how people think, if they…

Interesting, could u share a bit more pls?

We made up a problem with technologies that we use at work targeted at frontend engineers. So we set up a project with a Symfony backend and made the candidates create Twig templates and SASS styling based on Bootstrap. Then we put that up on Github with a README. So the candidates could focus on the frontend stuff without caring for the backend. Still they had to figure out how to set up SASS compilation and modularization of Twig templates.

As I said it's not very hard but you can get bonus points if you come up with considerations for responsive design or stuff like that. Overall the aim is to create readable idiomatic code and not come up with something clever that no one but you can understand.

I guess that's a very specific task that's of no great use to others but the point is to have a specific problem with some blanks that can be filled out with a reasonable amount of work by the candidates. Plus the general workflow using git and such.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#112

Post by rvense » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #8

agloeregrets wrote: post #4

I'm betting on this article being controversial here somewhat. The point on OSS is hilariously true though. Like, everyone does realize that the tech giants just found a way to make the community work for them and to make money off the backs of it right? OSS is great for almost everyone, don't get me wrong, but in whole, the largest tech companies in the world have gotten an entire community to test, fix, and develop…

> Like, everyone does realize that the tech giants just found a way to make the community work for them and to make money off the backs of it right? Virtually every tech startup or company makes use of open source at every level. We all benefit. There’s no need to be cynical because big companies are also benefiting.

No company I've worked for would be able to exist without free software. Literally everything I've ever done professionally has been Linux, nginx, Postgres, frameworks, etc.

On several occasions, I've found a bug and suggested that I spend time going to the framework source or whatever to fix it. I have never been allowed to do it, we've always just worked around it. There has been no concept of giving back.

I suppose Facebook et al are probably better in that respect.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#113

Post by pydry » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

notsuoh wrote: post #103

pydry wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Others may and do have the same level of skill but didn't have the bandwidth to contribute And even more have the potential to become excellent coders but didn't have the bandwidth to develop it. It seems peculiar to single out one quality in particular that sends a clear signal that a skill has been honed on the basis that it took time to hone that skill. All skills take time to develop.

All skills to take time to develop, well said. I am confident that looking at how a candidate interviews will no doubt show the fruits of that time spent without weighting too much the time spent, regardless of whether that time spent comes from contributing to open source, from their full time job, or just studying and honing their skills efficiently under harsher time constraints. We don't want people to target the…

>We don't want people to target the metric of "time spend coding on OSS projects" do we?

Nobody said that we did.

This is about ignoring OSS contributions vs. reading them taking them into account - i.e. deliberately ignoring a signal of quality because it might, for instance, discriminate against people who chose to have kids.

I find it particularly ironic coz part of the reason I wrote open source was to save time - to skip wasteful technical interviews that it ought to be obvious are unnecessary if I have public evidence I can code well.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#114

Post by notsuoh » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #91

notsuoh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking that a step further, we often actively discourage looking at OSS contributions during resume review for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. When we have done either of the above, the singles who work part time have a bunch of time to perfect their work suddenly have a lot to show over the single parents who…

> for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. This is just another single dimension hiring credential, that will result in limiting your hiring pool to people like yourself. My code ran on 70+ million machines last month, but I've come to decline any timed or proctored technical interviews. It's not that I'm too good…

We look at CV and then have an interview process. We don't do proctored timed interview coding questions in the usual sense, though we may walk through code. I understand the reluctance of a senior engineer such as yourself to go though any interview process, but to be honest I've interviewed plenty of engineers with decades of experience and many have completely fallen flat. Interviews aren't just about technical knowledge, but also to make sure people will get along and are reasonable to work with.

I think we'll agree that there has to be _some_ interview process. iirc node's Left Pad package is downloaded like 20M/mo.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#115

Post by austincheney » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

notsuoh wrote: post #90

austincheney wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I am married with kids and I have two separate careers in unrelated industries to balance, only one of which is full time though. Still I find time to spend with the wife and kids and I still contribute daily to open source. It is all about budgeting and balance. What are you willing to sacrifice. I don't have social time outside the family and I don't watch much television unless I am traveling away from the fami…

That's wonderful! You sound like a very driven person to be able to do all of that. Of course, your experience and ability shouldn't be considered the norm with everyone or expected of anyone, especially because with finite time in the day and differing situations, we must strive to judge everyone on the same plane.

> Of course, your experience and ability shouldn't be considered the norm

It is the norm in my line of work. I mean in my other line of work that isn't a software development.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#116

Post by burnished » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

ofrzeta wrote: post #29

I was at one of the first "DevOps Days" conferences in Hamburg where we sat in a huge circle and everyone had to introduce themselves and say what they are "passionate" about. Although I am a little bit more interested in the craft than an average 9to5 programmer I couldn't bring myself to use that phrase and could only articulate what I am "interested in". I am not a native English speaker so maybe my feelings aroun…

Passion refers to a level of intensity, desire, or obsession. It frequently is used to talk about romantic love but can refer to other things. You were probably right to use the word 'interested' over 'passionate', but if there is a some one who is staying up late working on and thinking about continuous integration then they could say they were passionate about it. There has probably been at least a couple dry technical topics that made you feel passionate in the same way some one could be passionate about CI. I wouldn't call being passionate about something to be typical though so its a pretty weird question to ask a circle of people.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#117

Post by mdtusz » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #92

whatshisface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software has an inherent bias towards people from prestigious schools and enforces that bias via heavy algorithm testing that is otherwise mostly not needed in software. Can't any school teach the same algorithms material? It's not exactly secret. Algorithms interviews seem more like surreptitious IQ tests than anything else.

Any school can teach the same algorithms material, but not every school allocates or requires comparable amount of time and effort to that material. Some schols will just point you at the material and test if you rememeber the basics, and some schools will outright flunk you unless you practice until you can write correct implementations of all that material quickly with your eyes closed.

And both methods are bad.

Whiteboard tests aren't inherently bad, but the sorts of algorithm questions that are asked at some interviews are absurd and do practically nothing to determine whether the candidate would be a good employee. 95% of being a programmer is plumbing data together, and it's pretty rare that there is a need to develop more complex algorithms for things - as long as someone knows the concepts of time and space complexity and isn't going to make huge O(n!) operations, it's much more important IMO to be interviewing for communication skills, system architecture, network, and security knowledge.

There's obviously exceptions to this if you're hiring for a role that specifically is writing very algorithmic code to solve a hard science or graphics problem but that's very much the edge case and even if it is the case, domain knowledge will be more important.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#118

Post by MrPowers » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

This article doesn't align with my experience of what I've observed.

> I don't think that it's in our interest to be passionate, but it is in employers' interest

Meh, I'm into some technologies just cause they fascinate me. Benefits employers, but benefits me too cause I get paid to pursue my passion.

> Not only are passionate people expected to work for free, they're also easier to manipulate

Passionate ppl in the Spark world make tons of money and strike me as geniuses that'd be hard to manipulate.

> Some open-source maintainers have created crucial software that runs everywhere

Yes

> Companies make millions off that free software, while maintainers are often left with an increasing support burden and no money

Maybe some. Spark creators went on to build a successful company (Databricks) that'll be going public soon. Companies seem to be throwing money at top open source devs in the data world.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#119

Post by Tabular-Iceberg » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #11

> Most people don't heed advice given for free, but if they pay dearly for it, they tend to pay attention. 100% this. I've seen consultants get paid $250 an hour to simply listen to what the team is saying and regurgitate that to management. But it's more trusted than their own employees because the consultant is "independent".

I thought I could use this to my advantage and game the system. I convinced management we needed to hire a prestigious consultant to get us out of the tight spot we were in. They were absolutely ecstatic about this great visionary I had brought in and all the genius insights he had (which was predictably just what the team had been saying for moths).

But it still came back to bite me in the end. When the consultant was paid and gone, there was suddenly no time anymore to act on any of the advice. It was all back to to the perpetual "just make this one simple feature" cycle, but the most insulting thing was hearing a twisted version of the consultant's advice used as ammunition against the team, questioning its competence.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#120

Post by notsuoh » Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #113

notsuoh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All skills to take time to develop, well said. I am confident that looking at how a candidate interviews will no doubt show the fruits of that time spent without weighting too much the time spent, regardless of whether that time spent comes from contributing to open source, from their full time job, or just studying and honing their skills efficiently under harsher time constraints. We don't want people to target the…

>We don't want people to target the metric of "time spend coding on OSS projects" do we? Nobody said that we did. This is about ignoring OSS contributions vs. reading them taking them into account - i.e. deliberately ignoring a signal of quality because it might, for instance, discriminate against people who chose to have kids. I find it particularly ironic coz part of the reason I wrote open source was to save time…

We don't ignore them completely, we just weight them very, very low, as I've indicated. They do provide context. Your phrasing "chose to have kids" betrays some of your underlying beliefs, I suspect. We'll likely just agree that we weight things differently and are willing to forego some otherwisee excellent candidates to index more heavily on being fair to everyone in the process and judging them to the same standards. This is a conscious choice, and so far a very good one.

To your second point, I can't think of a single thing I would let be a proxy for technical skill in an interview process -- certainly not some commits to open source. (Maybe if I had worked side by side with the person in a previous life would be weighted) Even if we did use that as a proxy, it doesn't really save time because people would have to inspect the work and still doesn't really tell me anything about the candidates approach to problem solving or framing of issues that I can get from pair programming or walking through some code for an hour.

I applaud all your open source contributions and appreciate them, but I wouldn't consider them in whether to hire you except perhaps at the margins. Others may disagree and that's their conscious choice or they're indexing on something different.