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Let there be more biographies of failures

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Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#111

Henry Petroski has written several excellent essays and books about engineering failures, why it is inherent in engineering pursuits that there will be failures, why it is important to learn the right lessons from these failures, and why each new generation will forget past lessons. Start with: "To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design" (1985)

The Brady Heywood podcast (https://www.bradyheywood.com.au/podcasts/) is great. It analyzes engineering failures, and is produced by a guy who's part of a forensic engineering consultancy.

The Apollo 13 series of episodes was gripping, and they're some of my favorite podcast episodes I've ever listened to. Way more technical detail about Apollo 13 than I had been exposed to before, along with amazing story telling. (Those episodes start here: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/apollo-13-teaser/id115...)

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#112
It’s probably true that biographies suffer from selection bias towards successful people, but simply publishing additional biographies of notable unsuccessful people probably isn’t going to eliminate selection bias very much. To eliminate that bias one would need to actually gather data and develop explanations for what choices and circumstances are favorable to success.

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#113
I loved the Nova episode "Parallel Worlds, Parallel lives". Mark Everett (maybe you have heard of his band "The Eels") talks and learns about his late father, Hugh Everett III, the quantum physicist author of the Parallel Universe theory.

A very good look at failure.

https://vimeo.com/58603054

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#115

Amen! I've found that 9 times out of 10 successful people follow the same advice and believe the same things as unsuccessful people (at least they SAY they do). So it's really useful to look at people who failed yet followed the same advice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Uh, you..failed at providing a clickable link. (Don't put spaces in front!)

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#116
post #14

When I saw the title, I initially rolled my eyes[0], but I have to concede a lot of the points the author is making with regard to the examples he's chosen. There is value in biographies covering failures. My first thought was "there's no market for it". But yes, there definitely is -- at least, I'm part of it. I remember watching a documentary on covering an early .com failure that with a few tweaks would have been…

> "Do we need to be told that wild success is an outlier just because a few adults need instructions to operate Shampoo?)."

No, we need to be told that wild success is an outlier because there's a huge push for people to work ever-longer hours with the wild success stories dangled in front of them as the carrot. There's a huge chunk of people arguing and voting that suffering poor humans shouldn't be helped based on the simplistic idea that work -> success, therefore !sucess means !work, and !success is inherently shameful. Your father clearly worked hard to provide for his family, you also say that his passion was solving problems and organising the system, a passion you don't have - is "being born the right kind of person" not a kind of luck? Another commenter says their mother was an incredibly hardworking person until she got ill and couldn't. Is there no luck in your father's health staying good enough that he could do those sleep-interrupted-nights for years on end? You say in another comment "as if saying so implies that people who are unsuccessful /don't/ work hard" but if people who are unsuccessful also work hard, what is it that distinguishes them from Bezos if not luck? You could say it's the /type of hard work/ they do, and I'd partly agree and say that's a good reason to push back on the meme "work harder, work harder!". Would you say that Jeff Bezos worked 170x harder than your father, for example? Why does pointing out the role that luck plays diminish your father's life in your eyes so much that you're posting multiple times about it? Elon Musk didn't "luck-in" to running SpaceX by sitting around playing video games waiting for the world to discover him, but if you try and follow in his hard work footsteps by setting up an online bank you'll be somewhat stumped by it not being 1999 and you not having a father who owned an Emerald mine.[1]

I am someone who often does your "growing trend with hating on people who are successfull by dismissing their success as luck", but it's not hating on Bezos with a claim that he didn't work hard, it's hating on the idea that if everyone worked hard they could be Bezos. It's hating on the idea that Bezos is a superior person to all the people who worked hard and got nothing from it, more deserving of being in the spotlight. It's hating on the idea that Bezos earned all the money he controls through his hard work and dismissing the contribution of all the other Amazon employees to that wealth. It's hating on the way the media puts the materially successful person because it's easier to make a "top 100 richest people" list than a "top 100 contented people" list. It's hating on the implication that everyone should strive for material success and the way to achieve that is by working harder, even though for almost all employees working harder will not get them much more than burnout - even people who want to improve at something need to focus their practise on improving, not just churning harder and harder. Would you not say that your father's life would have been better if he'd achieved the same success with less work? Would you say he was less respectable if he'd achieved the same with less work?

I don't exactly encourage "not working hard" when I say these things, I more encourage that hard work should be on your own terms, for something you love the process of working on - as you describe your father was passionate about organising and solving problems. Hard work that you are forced into by circumstance and necessity is a worse kind of work than hard work you choose to do of your own free will, and is different again from that which society pressures you to do. Donald Knuth works hard on TAOCP, it's not done for vast financial success, it's very respectable nevertheless. A hospital pushes an ICU nurse into another 12 hour shift with too-few coworkers, while cutting back on staff to increase profits; that's respectable that the nurse endures it, but objectionable for the system to be exploiting in that way. Jiro Oni from the documentary Jiro Dreams of Sushi - a lifetime of searching and striving hard for perfect sushi got him 3 Michelin stars and a family run restaurant which could seat a dozen people, and that's a far better kind of hard work and success than a 90 hour weeks striving to make partner at a law firm doing work you hate, because society told you that you don't matter unless you're visily suffering long-hours and own a McMansion. And society is telling us that, that the poor don't matter, that the rich and famous do matter, that the way to get higher social status is to sleep less and work more, that it's more respectable to stay 10 hours at work than to leave early to walk by the river. That it's intensely shameful to be unemployed. That your contribution at work isn't measured by the customers you please, but by the much easier to measure time you spent in the office. That it's awful to be part of a union which pushes for more pay for less work.

HN is a place of generally more educated people than average, doing work that's paid higher than average, and having more range of places to work than average, and there's still a continual trickle of comments saying "I could do much better work in less time if I could change ___ but the company doesn't want that, they want longer hours and people looking like they're suffering at crunch time". It's the orientation of life around work, the systemic pressure to treat employees as resources to extracted wealth from by working them harder and the corresponding messages for employees to align with that by seeing it as the only thing which is virtuous, which is objectionable. Not because of some "instructions to operate Shampoo"(???)

If working hard at a job you hate provides for your family, that's good on you, but it's not praiseworthy that that's how society is. It's the sacrifice for others which is respectable, not the lack of sleep or the Calories burned in themselves. If working less hard at something else brings you more money, that's not inherently bad because you aren't chasing material success and aren't working as hard as you can, there are other things than work.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.co.za/how-elon-musks-family-came...

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#117

"Let there be more biographies of failures, people who were ignored by the world, whose ideas came before their time, whose great work was left in ruins." Alan Kay. Simply because everyone misunderstood OOP and completely missed the point. The idea was too far ahead of it's time to have not been misunderstood.

"Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.—'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.'—Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood." — Emerson, Self-Reliance

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#118
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a quote from Tolstoy: “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

Like most proverbs, it only seems insightful and true if you don't think about what it is claiming at all.

Remember that everything Leo Tolstoy did (since his younger unlimited money, all whores and drinks, things,) is basically a headless chicken approach to different theologies and etc. He probably caought the syphilis etc in his golden days, and whatever, his golden years were really at the whorehouses. I mean a homeless schitzophrenic could basically write tolstoy works, if they could, I mean, so, the Tolstoy bullshit is really overblown. He was mainly and basically a cat-house client, and all of those things, drinking, etc, the latter things are just a product of his syphilly and so on. Tolstoy was a whore customer, and, whatever he did later is pretty irrelevant. He has no clear non-syphillic grasp on what he feels about religion, nor anything else. Stop lauding up LOLsToy. He was a whore-customer and little else, comrades.

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#119
post #95

the problem with wanting to write biographies of failures is the same problem with publishing negative results in science: there are too many failures, and too many ways to fail. It's like entropy - there are so many ways to do something wrong that it's not very efficient to learn how to do something by enumerating all the ways you cannot do it. Much rarer is success, which is why it's more worth the time to study. M…

I think the counter-point to this (Which you kind of bring up, "what to watch out for") is that success is often more about not losing than winning. So reading about other people's failures can be very helpful in ensuring you don't lose.

The other thing is that although a failure may be unique overall, there are undoubtedly common aspects among failures. So I feel like you can sift through a lot of failures relatively quickly once you find some of the common patterns.

For example, one of the most common failures of startups is no market for the product. Therefore, if you're researching a failed company and it seems like this is the case you can assume there will be little value in this failure and skip ahead.

Another possible technique following this line of thinking is to apply filters. If they failed before they reached x point, you can skip ahead.

Re: Let there be more biographies of failures

#120
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with failure is there are infinite ways to fail Do you mean infinite ways in life ? I’m trying to reconcile your statement as it would apply to a specific domain rather than something as broad as the scope of ones life. Reliability engineering would tend to disagree with the above quote. For a specific engineering application there are a certain number of fault modes that can be ideally mitigated and qu…

I was thinking of it more in ways businesses fails given we're on HN and that's a bit more narrow than the "in life" version of the article so that it's more useful. However that's a really great point that in the context of a specific engineering application failure can be enumerated to the point where such study of failure is incredibly powerful. Thanks for pointing that out.

Businesses also have common failure modes. I used startups as an example of learning from failure in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26498875.
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